Copyright Issue With Flickr

Hello,

 My name is Jean Bakula, and I am a professional tarot reader. I wrote a Wizzle tonight regarding beginner tarot readers. Although the Rider-Waite Deck is part of the public domain, as it was published before copyrights were necessary, I was still unable to get a picture of one card from Flickr or any other source. Any person who put the cards on Flickr, just took pictures of the cards, and put them on Flickr under their own name. They have no copyright right to them. I am upset and angry that I had to write an article with no illustration, because people abused this law. I have published my own book on this tarot deck, and know I am right.

Here's your deck, Jean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider-Waite_tarot_deck 

Thanks chefkeem, you're the best! I can just use the image with, um, an image capsule I guess? Sorry I was so crabby, it was so frustrating that someone had the nerve to copy all the cards when they were published all those years ago! Take care, Jean

You may use these images any way you want on your page, Jean. They're in the public domain. Be nice and add an attribution to the Wikipedia page, somewhere in your article.

Or just take your own pictures - I assume you own a set of the cards? 

JeanBakula: 07. Mar 2012, 21:56

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Hello,

 My name is Jean Bakula, and I am a professional tarot reader. I wrote a Wizzle tonight regarding beginner tarot readers. Although the Rider-Waite Deck is part of the public domain, as it was published before copyrights were necessary, I was still unable to get a picture of one card from Flickr or any other source. Any person who put the cards on Flickr, just took pictures of the cards, and put them on Flickr under their own name. They have no copyright right to them. I am upset and angry that I had to write an article with no illustration, because people abused this law. I have published my own book on this tarot deck, and know I am right.

Chef has helped you to solve your problem, but for the sake of others, and perhaps also for yourself, here some clarifications. You wrote:

"as it was published before copyrights were necessary,"

That is not correct, without going into details for this specific publication, there is no (recent) date 'before copyrights were necessary'. Copyright, if an image is not released into the public domain by the copyright owner, expires typically 70 years after the death of the creator. In some countries that can be also 100 years. The first copyright laws were passed in the 17th century in the UK and in the 18th century in the US (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright)

"They have no copyright right to them. .... because people abused this law."

No, they don't have a copyright to the cards, but they might have a copyright to the photo they took, depending if the photo shows anything else than just the plain card, i.e. special effects, composition etc. But I find it a bit harsh to speak of them as 'abusing the law', they are in their full rights to take the photos and to upload them to Flickr, they are under no obligation whatsoever to make their photos available to everybody. Why should they?

What I do in cases like this, I like the photo, but it doesn't have the right license for me to use it legally, I simply contact the photographer and ask! Until now, they have always said yes.

Hope that helps ;-)

Lissie: 08. Mar 2012, 02:51

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Or just take your own pictures - I assume you own a set of the cards? 

Lissie, if the cards she owns are the new ones (re-colored), they are indeed still under copyright in the US, but even then you could claim 'fair use' when writing an article about Tarot. But that is legally a very grey area where nobody really knows was goes and what doesn't.

Hi Lissie,

 My house is in the woods, and sort of dark. So I have lights on. It's always hard for me to find a spot to take pictures of Tarot cards. They always come out too light or too dark. I guess I have to find a perfect corner somewhere! Anyway, problem solved thru Wikipedia.

 Sam, I had to check the copyright of the cards for a book I wrote, and the person who drew the images died right after 1900. The scenes of the cards themselves have been considered in the public domain since 1909. I was just frustrated. I've taken note of what you all said though, as I don't want to infringe on anyone's rights! Thank you.

JeanBakula: 08. Mar 2012, 14:34

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Sam, I had to check the copyright of the cards for a book I wrote, and the person who drew the images died right after 1900.

I had a quick look at that and Wikipedia states Pamela Colman Smith as the illustrator, who died 1951. Wikipedia also states that the images are in the public domain, so perhaps the illustrator has released them into the public domain?

Hi Sam,

 It appears I had Ms. Coleman's date of death wrong, so am happy she lived longer :). I am sure the cards are public domain, I used all the images in my book on tarot last year, and I went through this issue with my Publisher. I am happy you led me back to the Wikipedia article on the artist herself though. It has much more info than it did when I originally looked at it last Fall 2011. I learned much more, because not a lot was known about her life. Waite hired her to make the drawings, but she did a wonderful job based on his descriptions. I also see the copyright date is disputed in the US and the UK.  Best Regards, Jean

JeanBakula: 08. Mar 2012, 18:59

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Hi Sam,

 It appears I had Ms. Coleman's date of death wrong, so am happy she lived longer :). I am sure the cards are public domain, I used all the images in my book on tarot last year, and I went through this issue with my Publisher. I am happy you led me back to the Wikipedia article on the artist herself though. It has much more info than it did when I originally looked at it last Fall 2011. I learned much more, because not a lot was known about her life. Waite hired her to make the drawings, but she did a wonderful job based on his descriptions. I also see the copyright date is disputed in the US and the UK.  Best Regards, Jean

I am sure you are right about the public domain status, publishers are panicky about that one ;-) One idea, why don't you write an extensive article here on Wizzley about her and then go on to bring the Wikipedia article up to scratch using and linking back to your Wizzley article from Wikipedia?

Hi Sam,

 That's a pretty good idea! I've been writing on several new sites, and trying to decide what to put where. I will definitely consider it. Thank you!