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Article

A Christian's Guide to Witchcraft and Wicca

This article has its genesis in a request by a Christian to explain what Wicca really entails, as opposed to what he'd been led to believe. I hope it answers those questions.

The spittle glistened in my hair, running down in rancid disrespect after being expelled from the mouth of the Christian lady. She was still yelling in my face, calling me words which I'm sure were not sanctioned in the Bible, or perhaps - thinking about the Babylonian Goddess - they were. I should have felt intimidated. But mostly I felt pity, over-ridden in huge part by the adrenaline rush of containing the danger. You see, she'd picked on the little one, the harmless looking one; I was actually the High Priestess. "May God forgive you." I calmly told her, while around the corner came the rest of the coven. It could have ended nastily, but I both signaled and told them to walk on by, the High Priest by my side. "And Jesus Christ too." Used to following our lead in a circle, they did so, though the looks they gave would have impressed Medusa. They were Wiccan, but they were also human beings, and bullying is ugly in any context. The Christians were physically protected that day by two high-ranking witches, even as they protested our right to attend the Pagan convention down the road. I would like to say that it was an isolated incident. Though rare (and I consider unrepresentative of Christianity as a whole), it was not. But I understood that they were acting within the constraints of their ignorance about what we do and believe, and ultimately they were trying to save us according to their own spiritual reality. Hence the High Priest and I protected them as feelings ran high, and I'm writing this Wizzle to inform their brethren now.

Do Witches Worship the Devil?

No, we consider Him to be a Christian concept and/or deity. There's no place for Him within our religion, other than as part of an Abrahamic pantheon.

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It's an image beloved of dramatic story-telling.

The Weird Sisters dancing on the blasted heath, or the unwary, foolish girls raising circles still in their school uniforms. Each of them harnessing the power of Satan to wreak havoc upon good Christian communities.

Unfortunately, these scenes are all written by Christian authors, or else delve into a deep well of cultural misconception, originally propagated by Christian clerics.

In short, it has nothing to do with real witchcraft, nor indeed any form of Paganism.

The thinking that there is one God and, if it's not Yahweh, then it must be the Devil, typically stems from Abrahamic religions.

Moreover, those accusations are the only time that Satan is elevated to the status of deity, outside Satanism itself. Of course, that latter is also an Abrahamic faith, albeit considered a shadow side by the others.

On the whole, Wiccans tend to be polytheists. The Gods of the Witches can, and have, filled whole volumes in encyclopaedic listings. Not to mention the Goddesses too.  In our religious mindset there is no one God, but several.

This is a point of view that does have relevance in Christianity too:

  • Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? (Exodus 15:11)
  • Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. (Exodus 23:13)
  • Thou shalt have none other gods before me. (Deuteronomy 5:7)
  • For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords. (10:17)
  • And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. (1 Samuel 28:13)

Those are merely a small selection of Biblical references to other deities. The difference being that Christians are taught to ignore Them, or else consider Them false constructs of an ignorant people, while Wiccans may explore Their teachings too.

However, even amongst the multitude of divine masculine forces with whom we may work, there's no-one quite matching the description of Satan, other than the fallen angel Himself.

Popular depictions of the Devil's aspect may draw upon the archetypal images of Pan or Cernunnos, while the behavior of the Lords of Misrule or Loki might conceivably match that of Satan. But only at a stretch. There are parallels in figures like Gwyn ap Nudd, Hades or Pluto, as male sovereigns of the Underworld, but none of them are automatically figures of punishment.

There is no Wiccan God who fits this criteria:

  • Sympathizes with the plight of humanity, locked out of the Afterworld, so much that He challenges the Father to let them in.
  • Leads a rebellion against the Father, when the answer is no. Ends up getting kicked out of the Afterworld Himself.
  • Tempts, guides or directs humanity into behavior deemed evil within the rules laid out by the Father.
  • Switches viewpoint again, in order to punish people for precisely the same behavior that He exemplified while they were alive.

I understand that I've just over-simplified that theology terribly. But the point was to highlight the major attributes, in order to categorically state that there is no God - or Lord of the Host - quite like that in Pagan legends.

Witches do not worship Satan. He's not one of our Gods.

Books about the Origins of Satan

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Do Witches Know That They're Going to Hell?

You wouldn't believe how often I've had this question hurled at me over the years. I always thank the person warning me, as I realize they have my best interests at heart.

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Here's where it gets a little more complicated.

Witches may not believe in a fire and brimstone Underworld, where evil-doers are punished for all eternity (or until they repent), but they certainly believe in Hel.

In Norse and Germanic mythology, there is a choice of destination upon your demise.

Those killed on the battlefield are gloriously lifted by the Valkyries and transported to Valhalla.There they drink and feast in the halls of their ancestors, sharing tales of valor and greatness, waited upon by virgins of exceeding beauty.

Everyone else goes to Hel.

More specifically, they go to Helheim - the dreary, grey and unexciting realm of the Goddess Hel. To be in Helheim, as opposed to Valhalla, is downright ignoble. It's the Fate of cowardly warriors, or those who simply did not try hard enough.

With half of Her face that of a stunningly beautiful woman, and the other half a skull, Hel has many parallels with the Christian demon Mazikeen. This is not coincidental. She's also found expression in the Germanic Frau Holle or Mother Hulda.

To the old people of Northern Europe, and modern day Heathens, Odinists et al, the phrase 'go to Hel' merely means to die. For the ancient nations especially, with their cultural emphasis on war, heroic fighting, territorial gains and bringing home the spoils of plunder, Hel awaited only the pacifists.

Do witches know that they're going to Hel for their practices and beliefs? That all depends upon whether they draw upon the Norse and Germanic legends within their spirituality.

There are some parallels here with Hell - as representing an undesirable Afterworld underscored by separation from the Glory - but the fiery pits of eternal pain don't feature anywhere.

Personally, I'm always grateful when Christians take it upon themselves to warn me about the perils of Hell. But only because I realize that, in their religious view, it's a much more terrible Fate. They're doing the spiritual equivalent of attempting to push me out of the way of an oncoming car. What's not to appreciate there?

But to fear Hell, as understood in Abrahamic faith, you first have to accept its reality as taught in the churches, synagogues and mosques. There really is no equivalent to that dread place in Paganism.

Discover More About the Witches' Concept of Hel

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Do Witches Hate God?

No, that would be phenomenally stupid. He's much bigger than any of us, and infinitely more powerful too.

It often seems to be a source of surprise for the more unthinking Christians (we all have their ilk in our religious communities) that Wiccans can worship their same God.

The issue here is two-fold: a) Allah/Yahweh/Jehovah isn't viewed in isolation, as a single, almighty deity; and b) He might not be worshiped - or worked with - in quite the same manner that you do yourself.  But frankly, aren't both of those things true within the broader scope of Abrahamic denominations anyway?

Wiccans generally apply equal credence to all of the other aforementioned Gods too, but not at the exclusion of the Abrahamic deity.

In fact, Christian Wicca or Christian Witchcraft is one of the biggest growing denominations in Paganism. They seamlessly merge Wiccan practice with Christian theology without any apparent problem at all.

So no, witches do not hate God, nor Jesus Christ, nor Mother Mary (we largely see Her as the Mother Goddess anyway), nor any of the angels and saints.

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Do Modern Pagans Sacrifice Lives in Ritual Practice?

I've genuinely been asked if I, as a witch, sacrifice babies or animals at my altar. If I did, do you really think I'd still be walking around free?

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No matter what I'm asked about Paganism, I try to keep a straight face. I understand that I am - for this person, and in this time and place - representing all Pagans everywhere, and that the questions asked may well be of vital importance for my querent.

However, the 'sacrifice' question always elicits a smile.

Please understand that I'm rarely ever actually asked about it. I'm more likely to be accused by someone very loud, doing the whole finger waggling in my face thing too.

And those people tend to be wearing a crucifix at the time.

I am being publicly vilified, as a practitioner of human sacrifice, by someone whose religion is based upon the sacrifice of a human being. Albeit the Divine Son of God in human form. Sooner or later, I'll be asked if I've not heard the Good News, and I'll totally crack up.

This laughter is not directed at the Savior - not only could Jesus Christ Himself turn up in Wiccan ideology, but we have plenty of other Sacrificial Kings and Gods in our pantheons too. It's more about the lack of joined up thinking involved in utter outrage at the thought that Pagans might ritually sacrifice anyone or any being, while deifying the concept of a Christian Savior dying upon the Cross.

But most of all, the inner hilarity concerns sheer common sense.

If every witch out there was habitually taking daggers to victims at the altar, then we'd all be serial killers. There are hundreds of thousands of Wiccan practitioners out there. The death toll would be astronomical. Yet we're apparently all crafty enough never to have been caught.

There's the serious side to it too. Tabloid newspapers have infiltrated covens, or other ritual gatherings, in the hope of sensationally reporting upon the sacrificial practices. When they came away thwarted by the lack of any gore, they made stuff up.

Wiccans have had their children taken away from them. They've lost their jobs and had their marriages ruined.

A Wiccan friend of mine, living in the American Bible belt, once left her home to take her young son to kindergarten. They encountered a collection of dead wild animals, each with their throats cut, and messages daubed in blood upon the wall, 'Your Next!' (sic) and 'Witch Get Out!' It terrified her, traumatized her son and wasted a lot of police time in not ever finding the perpetrators. Nor did it have the desired effect in chasing them out of their home, though the grisly warnings occasionally still appeared.

All because of this misconception that our circles are stained with blood.

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Throughout history, human and animal sacrifice has been a feature in most religions. Some still incorporate it - Voodoo springs to mind - while others have elements in symbolic gestures. The  Transubstantiation into the Blood and Body of Christ is a big example there.

This concept remains in Witchcraft and most other Pagan religions too. But as the latter.

We no more slaughter the High Priest at Lughnasadh, than Christians nail their priests to crucifixes each Good Friday.  We certainly don't kill babies, any more than Abraham did Isaac. I can't see any context, even historically, when virgin women (nor any female) would be ritually slain - our ancient traditions lean more towards male sacrifice.

Symbolism abounds, but never the reality. At the very least, it would countermand our Golden Rule of Harm None, and land a whole lot of us in jail.

I do have one funny story though, about a local practitioner of Ásatrú (a Norse Heathen religion), which did require an animal sacrifice as part of its rituals. The ancients probably did drive their knives into something alive and writhing, but modern day priests improvise.

This priest had his blade held high in the air, and was about to plunge it down onto his makeshift altar, hidden in the depths of a public park at night. Suddenly there was a loud cry of 'Stop! Police!' and constables emerged en masse from the shrubbery.

A passer-by had seen them entering the park. She'd noted the knife and seen something pink wrapped in the arms of a burly, bearded man. Assuming it was a baby, she'd called the police, and personally I'm glad that she did. Under that assumption, I would have too.

Thus the officers were there to interrupt the moment when the Ásatrú priest would have sacrificed a frozen chicken from Tesco. (With a spare stashed under the altar.)

It happened. I heard the story often from the priest involved, and giggled every time. Remembering that is part of the reason that I always smirk, when I'm asked if Pagans sacrifice animals.

Example of a Sacrificial King Within the Wiccan Faith

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Frank is a Christian and a fellow Wizzley writer. His take on this matter is highly informative and most definitely worth a read.

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Do Witches Obey the Ten Commandments?

I'm never exactly asked this question, but I am frequently queried along those lines. In short, have we got any kind of morality at all?

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One of the best 'Wiccan coming out' stories I ever heard was from a friend, who came from a devoutly Catholic family.

When circumstances conspired to force her to inform Mum and Dad that she was now an initiated Witch, her mother replied, "Well, as long as you still have faith." And hugged her.

It's an undoubtedly heart-warming tale, but the main point for me is her mother's astute spiritual intelligence.

Religions exist to give us meaning in the Great Mysteries. Faith tends to require some form of moral framework. Does it really matter then what form that spirituality takes?

And by the same token, I once overheard a conversation in which an Atheist was asked, "So what stops YOU going out and murdering people then, if you don't believe in Heaven and Hell?"  The answer - "I do."

It's my belief that human beings are fundamentally 'good' and 'bad' in equal measure, directed as much by the mores of their society and their own conscience, as by their religious grounding. As members of the human race, that includes witches too.

Wicca is an active religion, as differentiated by the passivity of religions like Christianity. By that I mean that Christians will attend church, hear a sermon, read their Bible and understand very clearly certain distinctions between right and wrong. They passively receive that teaching, then actively apply it in their daily lives.

On the other hand, Wiccans are encouraged by all to actively find their own pathways through life. No High Priest nor High Priestess handed me morality on a plate. I will challenge my own initiates in turn to explore their spirituality. There is no dogma, no central council issuing guidance and certainly no single book to delve into for answers.

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Chief amongst the dogma, that we stubbornly refuse to admit that we have, is the Wiccan Rede. Better known to one and all as: An it harm none do what ye will.

This 'ancient' rede was adapted by Doreen Valiente in 1964, from Gerald Gardner's paraphrasing of a French literary character a few years before - Do what you like so long as you harm no one. (You've got to admit that Doreen's version sounds better.)

Both with knowledge and reference to Aleister Crowley's occult teachings from 1904, wherein the Rede was actually a kind of question: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law? The reply being: Love is the law, love under will.

Which he had nicked from the 16th century writings of François Rabelais:

DO AS THOU WILT because men that are free, of gentle birth, well bred and at home in civilized company possess a natural instinct that inclines them to virtue and saves them from vice. This instinct they name their honor.

Incidentally, 'rede' is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning 'counsel'.  The Wiccan Rede is therefore extremely strong advice that none of us harm anyone nor anything, though we can otherwise apply our will to whatever we wish.

Do you know how restrictive 'harm none' is in reality? It seems so simply stated, but once you get into the implications of what's meant by 'harm' and who/what is encompassed by 'none', then it's an extremely wide-ranging umbrella of morality over all modern witches.

But how does that compare to the Ten Commandments?

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One and two are habitually broken outright by the average Wiccan:

  • You shall have no other Gods before me isn't acceptable in witchcraft, as the rest of our pantheons hold equal precedence.
  • You shall not make for yourself a graven image - actually, I could probably get away with this, as I've never made one for myself.  I have graven images crafted by other people though. But my statue of Morrighan, face plaque of Morgan and twin set of the Green Man and Green Lady are only of the same ilk exhibited in the figurines of Mother Mary on show in my brother's household. Do they count?

As for three through to ten, they are all covered by the Wiccan consensus in our Rede - An' it Harm None. So yes, Wiccan morality ticks the boxes of eight (maybe nine) out of ten, when compared to the Commandments.

Hence proving again the insight of my friend's mother, in her kindly comment, "Well, as long as you have faith."

I do hope that this has answered the most common questions to the satisfaction of all. If you need further clarification, or any other queries, please do feel free to ask away. I will do my best to respond to all.

Books about Paganism in Christianity

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Do Witches Practice Magic and/or Sorcery?

Yes, I really do hope that magic is a part of witchcraft. But then again, we may be talking about different things.

This was asked in the comment section, and referred to later too. Hence I realize that it was an important point missed out.  Here is how I answered it below, but with a few additions:

As for magic, the etymology there is very interesting. It ultimately comes from the Old Persian - to have power - via Ancient Greek - to be a member of the learned or priestly caste. This meaning is retained in Christianity too, when the Three Kings are sometimes alternatively called the Three Mages, or the Three Wise Men.

Magic is definitely dangerous. It means to have enough education to make up your own mind about things; and to use that freedom of information to influence events around you.

In modern terminology, the internet is a fabulous source of magic. People all over the world pool expertise, news and lived experience, providing a greater scope for understanding. This is magic in its purest sense. Then they may band together to enact change, whether it's raising money for the needy, petitioning government or solving mysteries through collective brainstorming.

We're performing magic right now. We're exchanging information. We've influenced our lives in that exchange, because that knowledge is accessible in all of our future dealings.

In fact, let's run through the original meanings of related words and titles here:

Mage - To be learned; to be a priest; to have power through knowledge.

Priest - To be an elder; to know things through age and experience; to be in charge.

Magician - To use your learning, scholarly studies, experience etc to effect change in the world around you; to influence society by your counsel or teaching, or lives through your research, discoveries and inventions; to share your priestly insight.

Sage - To be a philosopher; to have profound wisdom; to have good taste.

Philosopher - (Roughly: Philo-sage) Lover of wisdom; one who speculates on the nature of all things to uncover truths.

Wise - To be aware; to be learned; to know; to understand the form; to be able to judge correctly; to have discernment.

Wizard - To apply wisdom; one who is wise - a sage or a philosopher, a magician or a priest.

Witch - Old English word for wizard. See above.

Wicce - A male witch; a man who knows.

Wicca - A female witch; a woman who knows. (NB This is Old English, we don't tend to separate male from female now. We're ALL Wicce, Wica, Wice or Wicca.)

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But back to the etymological evolution of magic.

By the time the Romans got hold of the word, it moved on to meaning those in charge of their own Fate or fortune. But the Fates and Fortuna meant very specific things to the Romans, dangerous things. Leading to the Late Medieval version of magic - fortune teller, those who can predict the future. A magician.

Stemming from this period we get another word to add to our list:

Sorcerer - (from the Latin Sortiarius) To be able to sort, arrange or line up, though in a very specific sense. The sorting in this sense refers to your lot in life, or your Fate etc. It's not precisely what you may think. Originally sorcerers (or sorters) were concerned with assigning status according to class; creed; color; race; parentage; wealth etc. They'd be sociologists now, or, at least, some kind of governmental administrator.

Naturally sorcerers could alter your life and affect your fortunes by changing your societal status. Which is the root of their later meaning - to tell fortunes. Then their role became all mixed up with magicians, so let's return there.

Meaning evolves. In the late 14th century, those practicing magic - those with learning, education and the knowledge to influence, manipulate or change the future - were deemed able to use hidden natural forces to create marvels. I think we'd call them scientists today, but magicians and alchemists they were then.

Only in Hollywood have practitioners of magic been able to stir their tea with their finger turning in the air. I mean, I can do a variation easily. But my finger would end up scalded.

Books on the History of Magic

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Do Witches Perform Spells?

Yes, we do; and if you are a Christian reading, so do you. If you are a good Christian, then you share your spells at any appropriate opportunity!

You know, I would absolutely love to be able to wriggle my nose and some obnoxious individual turns into a frog.

But I can't. Not least because it's against the ethics of 'harm none'. And, of course, I can't.

I would adore the ability to wave a wand at my empty cup, say some wise word and it be filled with tea. That would harm none! But my wand doesn't work that way.

Yes, witches perform spells, but first I think we need to agree on what is meant by spells. It's not what you saw in Harry Potter, Charmed or Bewitched.

In its original sense, spell means to tell a story; recite a genealogy; provide a history (from historias - testimony or witness); pass on information; teach.

You might know it from the word Gospel. Gos = good; Spell = story. Or Good News.

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Every time a witch shares his or her information, we are performing spells. I'm doing it right now in writing this article.  Every time you, or a member of your clergy, tells a parable from scriptures, or explains to someone why it's an amazing thing that Jesus died on the cross to save us, you are performing a spell.

But none of this appears to cover what springs to mind, when one imagines witches performing spells. Appearances can be deceptive.

Spellwork involves applying your will to enact a desired result. Forget right now that it also covers writing to your political representative to try and exert your wishes, or telephoning your doctor as you want an appointment this morning. They count, but they're all examples of when you can combine spells (telling your stories) with actions. You can do something about your situation.

There will always be times when nothing that we could do can affect the outcome. It's in the lap of the Gods. It's all down to the Fates. It's God's will.

So we tell deity our story. We recite our history in a holy context, or pass on information to our Gods in the hope of divine intervention. We plead, beseech, and beg for our desired result.

We pray.

That's all that spellwork really is, in the context so beloved of Hollywood. It's another word for prayer, only the deity at the other end might not necessarily be the same as in your church.

Christian Prayer Books

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Like any faith, Witchcraft and Christianity often travel across the same spiritual landscape. What binds us has always been more important than what divides us.

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Comments

JoHarringtonJun 24, 2014

Samhain, Imbolc, Beltane and Lughnasadh are British/Irish; the equinoxes and the solstices are Anglo-Saxon. That's why there's so much overlap in what's going on regarding divinity in some of them.

frankbeswickJun 23, 2014

Thanks for the information about the two wheels of life combined ino the wiccan wheel. While I knew the wiccan wheel, I did not realize that it was a combination of Saxon and British.

JoHarringtonJun 23, 2014

Ah! I see what you're talking about now. Yes, there is most certainly a sacred wheel of the year in Wicca. Itself is an amalgamation of two sacred wheels (one British, one Anglo-Saxon) resulting in eight spokes of the wheel instead of four apiece.

At each position, you may view the Goddess in Her various aspects, and a succession of Gods, within a cyclical story. The God is born, lives large and dies. The Goddess is roaming free as summer, or hibernating in the frozen ground. But that's the agricultural cycle again. There are many, many layers beyond that.

Last night I was chatting with friends about Arianrhod. Her cycle is more akin to the solar system. Her name translates as silver wheel, and we're looking at the stars to explain that one.

Then you get zodiacal ages, which span much longer than a year. When Pisces rose at Spring Equinox, then the fish came to be attached to the dominant religion. Before that it was all about the bulls, or the rams, or the lion. We're reaching the point where it'll be Aquarius rising, hence all of the talk (and great songs) about the Age of Aquarius. That'll see us through the next few thousand years. We'll see water and water-carriers taking over the fish symbolism, regardless of the religion involved.

As a species, we've always looked to the Heavens and the ground for our sacred explanations. As above, so below.

frankbeswickJun 23, 2014

I have been thinking that we see time in a secular way, but ancients regarded it as having a sacred dimension, and religions carry on this idea with their ritual year. The yearly cycle of the dying and rising god is an example of this cycle. The Christians inherited the ancient sacred year and grafted on their festivals. Certainly, food is something sacred, as it is central to life. So the cycle of food and time is a sacred reality. I was aware of the connection of Wiccan festivals with farming, and I suggest that this connection developed in the neolithic age. Finding the sacred in the ordinary realities of time and space is important and enriches life greatly

JoHarringtonJun 22, 2014

WordChazer - I didn't know that about the haywain.

JoHarringtonJun 22, 2014

Frank - I saw the cycle as fulfilling a need to match ordinary people's lives. That meant the agricultural year, upon which everyone relied for their food. So many Wiccan Sabbats (and older Pagan ones, plus folk festivals) follow the cycle of farming.

Or did you mean something more distinct in your sacred year?

frankbeswickJun 22, 2014

Harvest festival is an essential part of the sacred year, going as far back as the Neolithic age. I suppose that having special clothes for certain times is connected to sacred times, but I am unsure how. I did not know the haywain superstition

GuestJun 21, 2014

Did you know, Frank, that to see the back end of a haywain or hay waggon was considered bad luck, just like seeing a single magpie is? (I learned that thanks to Peter and Iona Opie's books.) I might be Christian, but I still observe the traditional superstitions when it comes to single magpies, not crossing the fingers of your left hand and not walking under ladders. I'm also a creature of habit in that some routines and clothes worn on certain days bring me great peace of mind. Some of that must be rooted in things done for one or other version of the sacred year, depending on which religion you adhere to? As for the sacred year - Harvest Festival must be a part of this, surely?

frankbeswickJun 21, 2014

Now hay making festivals are new to me, and interesting.

What is interesting to me is the sacred year. Clearly paganism follows the sacred cycles of the seasons, and Catholicism inherited this sacred cycle, grafting Christian feasts onto the older pagan system. But the need for a sacred cycle of seasons and their celebration does not go away, and it lurks underneath the newer Catholic ritual year. This sacred time seems to parallel the need for sacred places. Paganism had its sacred sites, and some of them carried on being held sacred under the newer faith. I am reflecting on the sacred year, for I see the need for the cycle of time to have a sacred dimension, just as we need sacred places. What are your thoughts on this issue, Jo.

JoHarringtonJun 21, 2014

I might go and check out a hay-making festival that I just found. :) I hope today isn't too onerous for you.

frankbeswickJun 21, 2014

There is no solstice festival. If there were I could have a day off marking papers.

JoHarringtonJun 20, 2014

WordChazer - I'll see the sun up for us all, you get some lovely rest. <3 Thanks.

JoHarringtonJun 20, 2014

Frank - Thank you very much. Is there a festival in Christianity that corresponds? If so, have a good one. I missed Pentacost, as I only discovered that one when I was unplugged in Merseyside.

GuestJun 20, 2014

Too tired to do my usual and see a white night through this time of year. Need to meet a fiverr deadline and then I'm off to bed for 12 hours of blessed repose. No alarms, no wake up calls, no disturbances. Nothing. Just sweet sleep. Have a good one, our Jo.

frankbeswickJun 20, 2014

Summer Solstice [Litha] tomorrow : have a good solstice festival, Jo.

JoHarringtonMay 20, 2014

Looking forward to reading your stuff. :D

VioletteRoseMay 16, 2014

Writing about holy people sounds nice, thanks for the idea:) I agree about the articles by ologsinquito, there is so much inspiration from all of you, thank you :)

GuestMay 15, 2014

Yes, please write about Hindu holy people, VioletteRose. I was educated by Catholics, and I only know about saints...I need a more rounded religious education. As for patience: I can talk. I've been promising articles on subjects for months that I've never written yet (ahem, my personal development project for a start...).

frankbeswickMay 15, 2014

Wisdom [Hebrew Hokhmah] was seen as a divine emanation that was along with shekinah [glory] and word [dabar] an intermediary between God and humans. The text is not Proverbs, but Wisdom 6:12-21, which speaks of Wisom as she. Wisdom, which was later translated as Sophia, was in Hebrew female; not a goddess, but a feminine emanation of God. You would not be wrong in calling her Sophia, but she was not identified with Isis, who is not mentioned in the Bible.

Goddesses are mentioned in the Bible. However, the prophets railed against the worship of the Queen of Heaven, Astarte, whose worship was sometimes orgiastic. There is a book that might interest you, though sadly I lost my copy during my house move some years ago. It is called "The Great Angel" sorry I have forgotten the author, but it argues that Yahweh is neither a male nor female term [I agree] and that Yahweh could have been regarded as either male or female, but that the male predominated and the female was forgotten.

You might also be interested to know that at the Jewish temple at Elephantine in Egypt, founded by Jews fleeing Nebachudnezzar, Yahweh was worshipped with a female consort. The contributors to this temple would have included those Jews who abducted Jeremiah as a hostage after murdering the Babylonian governor and who took the prophet Jeremiah as hostage.They are mentioned as worshipping the Queen of Heaven. The material on Elephantine is not in the Bible, but the abduction of Jermiah is, as is his clash with worshippers of the goddess.

JoHarringtonMay 15, 2014

I'm loving the cheer-leading brigade in the rest of this. I agree that we have some amazingly talented writers giving us some excellent insight into religious and spiritual matters, but very little on Hinduism. Take your time, VioletteRose, but I'm looking forward to reading them when they come.

JoHarringtonMay 15, 2014

Frank - I'd certainly noticed that 'in male and female he created them'. It was when I was (half-jokingly) rowing with a friend, who was being (equally playfully, I hope) very misogynist. I was finding all of the hints towards a Goddess in the Bible, just because it annoyed him. There's a section in Proverbs that was a wealth of ammunition. I think it was 26, but that's from memory. It's about the Goddess of Wisdom (who I insisted on renaming Isis and/or Sophia for the rest of the evening) at the gate.

frankbeswickMay 15, 2014

Thanks, Violet/Rose. I will seek it out.

Have you looked at the Wizzley articles by Ologsinquito. She writes really nice Catholic devotional material, some of which is about Catholic saints. You could so something similar. You could write about Hindu holy people. While I am nearly retired from teaching [64 next month and state pension next year] this sort of article would be very informative for people involved in education, many of whom need to have interesting people to talk about in Religious Education lessons.

VioletteRoseMay 15, 2014

Thanks frank and WordChazer! Whenever I take my laptop, both my baby and toddler also want to play with it, which I do not encourage usually. So I will definitely need some time :) thanks so much for the patience.The encouragement and inspiration that I get from Wizzley is great, I appreciate that and I definitely have the passion to write more. This is a learning opportunity for me too.
@Frank, in Wizzley I have an article on holi celebrations which is a hindu festival. Maybe I should write more as they come.

GuestMay 14, 2014

I'm up for reading an article on Lakhshmi too. Looks like I'm joining the 'let's give Wizzley writing ideas' brigade now. Jo or VioletteRose, I'll be happy to read your article when it occurs.

frankbeswickMay 14, 2014

Have the confidence,VioletRose, to write this article, but do not rush. I am patient. Writing an article on religion will expand your scope as a writer.

On Wizzley we have Jo writing on paganism and me writing on Christianity. But we need other faiths, and you can provide us with some Hindu articles. You might write on festivals. I, as an educator, need to know more about Hindu festivals.

VioletteRoseMay 14, 2014

That's great to know that I could tell you both a concept that you didnt know before! Writing an article based on it looks little challenging to me as I have never written an article related to religion. Let me see if I can :) may be I need a little more time than usual. There is no surprise about the familiarity with Lakshmi Narayana since this is also a common sacred chant for hindus, and also it is quite popular as hindu name.

frankbeswickMay 14, 2014

A much overlooked verse in Genesis 1:27. Of Adam and Eve the text says, "In the image of God he made them, male and female he created them." This is not the oldest text in the Bible, having been written in 450 BC as part of a prequel chapter in Genesis, but it indicates the fundamental equality of male and female, and that both male and female equally share the divine image. Male theologians have been trying to write the implications of this text out of the picture by ignoring it. I have just realized, I don't know of any theological discourses on this text. There must be some somewhere.

I, for one, would appreciate an article on ardhananisvara and Lakshmi Narayana, as my studies of Hinduism have managed to overlook these concepts. I try to be familiar with the teachings of all religions, but it is an unending task never to be fully completed.

JoHarringtonMay 14, 2014

VioletteRose - No, I was not aware of Ardhananisvara nor Lakshmi Narayana, though the latter word seems very familiar. I'm just struggling with the context from my memory.

Looks like you've introduced me and Frank alike to a new avenue of spiritual discovery! Is there an article in this for you?

JoHarringtonMay 14, 2014

Frank - Rather like the Yin-Yang? This fundamental duality lies at the core of Wicca. The circle is only complete when you have male and female together, working as a single entity.

Hear, hear on Greek privilege!

frankbeswickMay 14, 2014

That is close to what I am saying. Hinduism does not draw a distinction between the deity and the universe, unlike the Judaeo-Christian faiths, which do. But I agree that the male and female energies are equally important [though I thank you for informing me of a term that I did not know.] Similarly, I believe that both genders are rooted in God's identity, and that the deity can be described as either.

VioletteRoseMay 14, 2014

Hi Jo and Frank, I am really not sure if what I am talking is something related to what you mean. I do not know if you are already aware, but there is an important concept in hinduism with regards to the gender, known as Ardhanarisvara which symbolizes half feminine and half masculine energies in the world. it also conveys the equal importance of both the genders. Lakshmi Narayana is another representation of the same concept. The representations depict the gods and goddesses, but it is thought to actually convey the equal importance of both male and female in the universe.

frankbeswickMay 13, 2014

Martin Buber spoke of a sense of presence-power. He saw the two as complementary dimensions, rather like length and breadth. Thus the ultimate reality may in one sense be regarded a-personally as power, but in another sense as personal. However, philosophers of religion often speak of super-eminence, the characteristic of the divine that it transcends categorizations of it. This would in one sense mean that the deity is person, but more so. Gender in the deity would be present, but transcended into something higher, of which male and female are two equal and complentary expressions.

I do agree that while there may be parallels between Celtic and Greek myths, it is wrong to explain the Celtic in terms of the Greek, as though the Greek were somehow in a privileged position over the Celtic.

JoHarringtonMay 13, 2014

Just recently, I've been reading a LOT of 18th, 19th and early 20th century books wherein Christians - often clerics/vicars - are looking at 6th century Welsh history and making sense of it. The amount of times they reach for examples from Greek, Roman, Persian, Indian etc mythology to explain Celtic spirituality is utterly unreal.

In fact, if I see the word Persephone anywhere near Cerridwen again, I think I'm going to scream.

While Gods and Goddesses undoubtedly have a gender, I'm not convinced that the primary force beyond them has such. It's a force, an energy, a something that we can't quite fathom, but the Physicists might. I'm fascinated with what data they're returning.

Hear, hear on the philosophy.

frankbeswickMay 13, 2014

Strangely, there is no need for Christianity to have a tightly prescribed philosophy or commitment to any specific scientific theory. Christians took to philosophy to think out their faith, but ratther than prescribe what is acceptable, it is probably better to screen out what is inconsistent with Christian faith. Clearly, an exclusively materialistic/deterministic view is incompatible with Christian faith, but Christians have taken to various Greek philosophies and some Christians have drawn on Indian thought to express their belief.

What quantum mechanics throws up is open at the moment, but there is a move in quantum Physics away from the belief that consciousness is either non-existent or peripheral/epiphenomenological to the view that it is primary and effective in the world. Some regard this basic consciousness as divine, possibly the goddess; others regard it as the god of the philosophers; but ultimately, I regard the deity as equally masculine and feminine. I use the word he for God for convenenience, but she is as valid as he. Similarly, the precise relationship of God to the world is yet to be teased out.

The basic Christian view should be that God was in Christ and is still working through the risen Christ in the world, but there is no reason for us to be too tight about the philosophy that we apply to God

JoHarringtonMay 13, 2014

WordChazer - You said so succinctly what I've been trying to convey in endless waffling for days. Thanks!

JoHarringtonMay 13, 2014

Frank - That about Aquinas is really intriguing. I wonder what he saw, and if there were even words to tell it.

I have a friend who's doing his MA in Physics. He's close to finishing, then will go on to do his PhD. He's great at explaining stuff to me like I'm a two year old, which is about my level in Physics. Then there's a great void where we don't have the shared language for him to explain much. Until we get to Quantum Physics, which is basically Wicca with some of the words changed.

VioletteRoseMay 13, 2014

@Frank, that is interesting to know about the similarity between the words 'asura' and ' ahura'. Asuras are considered as evil spirits who always tried to destroy the peace everywhere and the devas usually had wars to destroy asuras. Indra is the king of devas. When I say devas, that doesn't include the trinity, in many of the tales indra is mentioned as worshipping the trinity and also the godesses. I believe Indra was worshipped by ancient Hindus when there were droughts, as he is also the deva of rain and thunderstorms. The word asura, which means demon, is actually the opposite of the word sura, which means deva. Thanks!

GuestMay 12, 2014

@Jo the power of prayer is strong. Spellwork for Pagans, prayers for some, blessings for others. Whatever you call it, it is a strong piece of belief.

frankbeswickMay 12, 2014

Whether or not all deities are one is distinct from the question of whether all descriptions/stories of deities are compatible. Among pagan deities Isis was considered a gentle, kindly being, and her cultus harmed none, helped many; but Moloch, a Canaanite deity, demanded the human sacrifice of children, who were burned to death.The story of Abraham and Isaac, when Abraham was about to sacrifice his son, is a story told to reject the cultus of Moloch. It was to oppose human sacrifice. If deities are one, then some stories/descriptions of them must be rejected. Even benign deities, such as the Christian God, have had theologians who have spoken of him in ways that do him no justice. I am thinking of those who see God as a punitive deity, penalizing humanity for Adam and Eve and predestining some to hell. [You can tell that I do not believe this nonsense.] Some theology would be better scrapped.

As the world revealed by quantum physics is mysterious and beyond conventional conceptualisation, the deity is almost certainly at least as mysterious. So there is the possibliity of unity in plurality; plurality in unity in the deity. I did not know that Wiccans do not think that they have the overview, and this is wise. All would benefit if they realized that after a profound mystical vision lasting three days Aquinas refused to speak and said that all he had written appeared as straw compared with the mysteries that he had seen, but he died of plague a few months later.

JoHarringtonMay 12, 2014

Your mention of David Hume and the Calvanist approach pings off a question current in Wicca too - are all Gods one God and all Goddesses one Goddess? Or are they separate entities? It's a deep one that I should imagine applies to any religion, spirituality or theological philosophy.

One thing that is hammered home time and time again in Wicca is that we don't have the overview. You'll find people here very, very careful about the wording of our requests, often defaulting to asking for intercession 'for the greater good'. In short, I wanted the baby to survive, because he was my second cousin. There was an emotion impetus, which may well have been a selfish one too.

But was it the best outcome for the baby? At that moment in time, I couldn't have known. He was newborn and premature. Even the medical staff with their educated guesses based on tests and data couldn't have predicted his future health with any precision. Would his quality of life cause us to regret or rejoice in his survival? We didn't have the long view, but we prayed nonetheless.

We include deity here in the hope that the divine does have the overview and the long view both, and that our prayers are answered in the spirit that they were meant - help for the baby - rather than the salving of a selfish emotion.

And yes, we're never quite sure who will answer that call. That's always the danger.

frankbeswickMay 12, 2014

What you have told me about the baby is wonderful. But it raises an important point. David Hume caricatured religion when he said that if people of different religions have their prayers answered they are being answered by different gods. How silly of him not to check the veracity of his Calvinist assumption that God only listens to Christians. I believe that all prayer ascends to the One, however you name him or her, and that the deity cares for all folk of all faiths and none.

You are probably on the right lines when you speak of energies [though we all grope in the dark here.] In prayer I link my mind/energies to God and hope that my prayers will co-operate in his the effecting of his will for the recipient.

The big issue with prayers and spells is the allies that we choose. Catholics seek help of angels and saints, particularly Mary. There is always a danger when using magic of seeking help from spirits, not all of whom may be of good will. But the principle that it harm none is a good one that should guide all Wiccan practice.

JoHarringtonMay 12, 2014

Frank - You added in the part about the Magi, while I was writing the below comment. Thanks for the insight into them!

JoHarringtonMay 12, 2014

Frank - If they don't, then they really haven't grasped the underlying energies of spellwork. That is to imbue the energies with a story of some description, then send them out into the ether with the intention of changing/influencing an outcome. If the individual thinks that they personally are doing that, then they secretly believe themselves to be divine.

You'd be amazed how many Wiccans secretly believe themselves to be divine. Though I suppose it's the same in all faiths. You get Christians who secretly think themselves saints or angels too.

When my cousin's baby was born too early, with a lot of problems, we were told he had a slim chance of survival.

The spellwork begins here.

I raised a circle and imbued it with energy where he survived. I asked both the local Mother Goddess and the national one for help. I called upon our ancestors to witness this. I asked my extensive network of Pagan, Wiccan and Heathen friends to do the same.

In the meantime, a Muslim PhD student, who was with me when I got the text about the baby, went to the the local mosque and prayed on his behalf. A Hindu co-worker did the same in her temple, as did a Bulgarian Orthodox man in his church. (A Sikh friend said she would, but she was a bit flaky and I never heard back. Perhaps she did, perhaps she didn't.)

My auntie left a message on a Methodist forum. Several chapels returned the news that they'd prayed for the baby. She led her own prayers in her own chapel too. My brother's mother-in-law - a Catholic - prayed privately and then took the prayer request to our local priest. When the congregation turned up for mass that Saturday, a prayer for the baby was included.

The baby's grandmother had the Anglicans praying too.

By now, I should imagine every deity in the vicinity was fully aware of the situation. For the Atheists there's also the fact that the medical staff pulled out all of the stops for him.

The spellwork ends here.

The baby did survive. He's now a strapping young teenager. Which spell, or combination thereof, takes the credit depends upon the person recounting the story. Maybe all of them, if you factor in the amount of hope being generated. Divine intervention aside, the psychology kept it positive and that can always help.

frankbeswickMay 12, 2014

The Magi [singular magus, plural magi] were Zoroastrian wise men, astrologers, their faith being based in Iran/Persia, and it still exists in small spots there and in India. The idea that they were kings is a mediaeval error. Certainly the word for magician came from them.

JoHarringtonMay 12, 2014

Ember - I didn't make a thing up there. They are all the genuine etymology of each word.

frankbeswickMay 12, 2014

You are equating spell work with intercessory prayer, which is no different from Christian practice.I knew that Wiccans prayed. I did not know that you equate spell work with prayer. Do all pagans take this view?

I practice intercessory prayer [praying for others] but I ponder on what is happening in it. We are not simply pleading with the big chief to change his mind or do something. It is deeper than that, but I have yet to formulate a clear view. It may be to do with the phenomenon of distant effects and the ability of mind to be influential, used in harmony with the deity.

EmberMay 12, 2014

I love the new sections you added. It is just so fascinating to have those words in a brand new context.

JoHarringtonMay 11, 2014

It's never occurred to me to wonder which pantheon the Christian God actually came from, or what His name was before it was God. Thanks for the quick lesson about it all.

frankbeswickMay 11, 2014

Until about 1500 bc all faiths were branches of paganism, but very local ones, as you would expect at a period when communication was arduous and slow. Individual religions began to develop organically out of the original paganism in response to religious experiences of differing kinds. But the understanding of deities evolved organically from the pagan stratum. Certainly the early Hebrews called God El Shaddai, God of the heights, and possibly saw him as the high God, though Shaddai may have been originally part of a pagan, possibly Aramaean pantheon . The Hebrew prophets moved out of the original semi-paganism of the Hebrews by denying that El had any partners or other gods to go with him.

There are some difficulties in ascertaining how the name Yahweh, the name which God gave when Moses asked him his name, evolved, and how it blended with El. It is possible that the name, which means I am who I am, was a play on Ea, a Babylonian deity believed to be a friend of humans. Interestingly, according to the Babylonian account Ea saved humans at the flood, a tale that differs from the Bible story that God sent it.

Even the institution of prophecy was not unique to Israel, as the local pagan faiths had prophets. But Hebrew prophecy drew the Israelite faith into uniqueness by its specific message rather than by the fact of prophecy.

JoHarringtonMay 11, 2014

I'm glad that it's given you food for thought. I'd not heard of the three streams that you mentioned, so this one is new for me. I'm pretty sure that, if we go back far enough, they all turn into the same river and certainly the same sea.

frankbeswickMay 11, 2014

This discussion has been useful to me, as it has led me to reconsider how I classify world faiths. We normally talk of the two big streams: the Semitic and the Indian, and we allow for a third small stream, the Iranian. Where Wiccan fitted into this categorization was unclear. But having had this discussion has led me to see that what we call the Indian is part of a wider pagan stream that includes many other faiths, including Shinto and European paganism. I would not account the Iranian stream, the Zoroastrian [Parsee faith] as pagan, as it is closer to the Semitic stream to the extent that I would like to include the Iranian and Semitic in one larger classification.

JoHarringtonMay 11, 2014

Frank - You're always an education. Thanks for that link.

JoHarringtonMay 11, 2014

VioletteRose - Oooh! Thank you!

frankbeswickMay 11, 2014

Here, VioletRose, is a relationship interesting to a Hindu and to pagans. Consider that h and s are phonological alternatives. Thus super in Latin is hyper in Greek [means higher, pronounced huper]]; sub in Latin is hypo in Greek [means lower, pronounced hub]] There are some spirits in the Hindu pantheon known as asuras, who were probably the demoted deities of the pre-Aryan peoples of India; in Iranian religion the deity was an ahura. [Asura/ahura]. Now here is the link with Europe. The Norse worshipped a group of deities known as the Aesir [pronounced assir] and their surviving cult is known as Aseratu. [Ahura/Asura/Aesir, see the phonological similarity.] Grigsby, writing in Beowulf and Grendel, claims that the Aesir were a cultus that entered Europe from further East and displaced the older Neolithic Vanir I do not think that the Aesir came from India, but that a cult of asuras was spread across South West Asia and was found in India. The Vanir survived as an inferior level of deities below the Aesir, though Grigsby believes that the Aesir were an aristocratic cult and the Vanir were worshipped by the ordinary English people. Certainly the mothers, triple goddesses popular with the English and other Germanic people, who had modranacht [mother's night] were Vanir.

Devas and Ahuras were incompatible. In Hinduism the Devas drove down the asura; in Zoroastrianism the deity is Ahura Mazda and the devas were regarded as demons, particularly Indra, who was seen as a war deva and unpopular with the Iranian Zoroastrians.

VioletteRoseMay 10, 2014

Hi Jo, I can recognize the first few verses and I am familiar with it. I can't recognize the
Verses that you have mentioned later.

One thing is that in the third line, it is actually
'Mrtyorma amrtam gamaya' , as mamtrtam is not a word. Actually I am traveling today, so I will look into it later and then let you know if I can find out anything. Thank you!

JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014

Frank - I'll include anyone and everyone into the Pagan family, including your lot. :)

Incidentally, just in case anyone reading doesn't know, Pagan comes from the Latin Paganus, which simply means villager or commoner. The chiefs, kings etc tended to be the first to convert to a new religion ahead of a mass conversion. (This wasn't a coincidence.)

Hence you'd end up with a situation where the posh people were all Born Again, let's say Christian, while the scutters in the rural areas were still with the old religion. Originally it would be a matter of fact, "Fashionable society are all adherents of this religion, not the religion of the pagans." (or "not the religion of the villagers.") Then it got a little sneery.

A few generations on, Paganus didn't mean 'common people' anymore, it meant the old religion. Particularly since the word and the conversion coincided with the fall of the Roman Empire, hence Latin went too.

Move on a few centuries and Pagan means any religion that wasn't Christian. Then, more recently, any which isn't Abrahamic. So yes, Buddhist officially counts as Pagan. But you're all welcome in my camp anyway. :)

JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014

VioletteRose - You're well ahead of me, I've not read any of them, and I'm not proud of that.

Though it does occur to me that half the songs on The Matrix soundtrack were in Sankrit and quoting the Vedas. And by 'occur', I mean, can you help me out here? http://www.bubblews.com/news/2241226-do-you-speak-an-asian-language-please-help-me-with-navras-lyrics

I've never had kheer, but I have had mango ice cream. Delicious! I should mention at this point that I used to have a housemate from the Gujarat. She hated housework, I can't cook. Hence I kept the house spotless and had Indian food every night. Happy days!

frankbeswickMay 10, 2014

Would you include Buddhism in the pagan family, as Buddhists accept that there are higher beings,but do not make them central compared to Buddhas and Boddhisattvas?

frankbeswickMay 10, 2014

The Indo-European language family, to which Sanskrit, Greek, Latin and others [not Dravidian] belong probably originated in West Asia. Some groups, speaking Greek and Latin or relatives thereof went West to Europe, but others went East, and they gave us Sanskrit and the Iranian languages. Other languages like English, Welsh and most European languages evolved by the interaction of local languages with Indo-European speakers.

When after the war my father was posted to Greece by the army they had Indian porters, who took up Greek easily as it was similar to their languages.

VioletteRoseMay 10, 2014

Thanks for explaining frank :) I didn't know that Sanskrit is related to Latin and Greek. Do you think these languages sound similar, or do they have anything in common related to their origin? I can understand many words in Sanskrit, but that is only because my first language, Malayalam, is a mix of both Sanskrit and another Dravidian language.

frankbeswickMay 10, 2014

The Vedas are quite old, and are a collection of ancient hymns and reflections on sacrifice and human nature. The Upanishads are more philosophical and are younger than the Vedas. It is from them that the doctrines of the vedanta developed. I have read some of the Hindu Scripture, though in translation, as I do not speak Sanskrit. Strangely, though, it is a language related to Latin and Greek. The Romans noted this and wondered why there was such similarity.

VioletteRoseMay 10, 2014

Interesting about Paganism and Hinduism :) My knowledge about the vedas is very shallow. It is so vast and difficult to grasp, and there are not many who can explain things to me. Even if I want to learn, it may take several years, or maybe a life time, to understand a small part of it. I only know that vedas are written in Sanskrit language and there are four main types. They include many sacred texts and verses to be recited and these are generally referred to as "mantras". A collection of these Vedic texts are also known as Upanishads.

I follow the book Bhagavad Gita and my favourite chapter is the Bhakti Yoga which talks about the devotion to god. Other than this I have some knowledge about the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata. This is all my religious knowledge as of now :) may be I should try to understand about more things. Its great you like the Indian sweets :) and I too like the paneer dishes. I would recommend you to try the mango kulfi, which is an Indian version of mango ice cream, and the kheer, which is much like a pudding...In case you haven't already tried these!

JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014

Mira - I'm really glad that I was able to share some stuff. :)

JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014

WordChazer - Ah! I had heard it, but I thought it originated in America. We learn something new every day. *goes to listen to Steve Winwood*

MiraMay 10, 2014

How very interesting. I've learned a few important bits not just about Wicca but also about spells, Gospels, sorcerers . . . Good stuff!

GuestMay 10, 2014

@Jo John Barleycorn is known here too. There's an old British folksong of that title (which was sung by the band Traffic in 1970-odd, forming the title track to their LP of the same name). This is an excuse to share this video of lead singer Steve Winwood, http://youtu.be/t8878chOvfI who still has it in spades at over 60. (He's 66 next week!) I'll come back and read the revised article when I've finished some report writing later.

JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014

Hear! Hear! You speak for me here too. Or should I say 'spell'. ;)

frankbeswickMay 10, 2014

Once you study world religions and other cultures, historic and/or modern, you break out of the conceptual mould in which you have been constrained. The pint pot of your earlier thought systems cannot contain the gallon or more that the mind has become. New enriching experiences generate growth.

JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014

Yay! And I've just added a whole lot more to the end of this article, based on the comments that I've received here and elsewhere. :)

For those coming here later, those commenting below didn't have reference to the sections on Magic/Sorcery and Spells. Those above possibly did.

Frank - I can certainly empathise with those moments that you describe, with reference to British spirituality and folk music. I agree that its in the blood.

frankbeswickMay 10, 2014

I do not believe that phrases should be copyrighted, so go ahead, use it when you wish.

There seems to be something about having Celtic blood. My spirit resonates to traditional Irish and Scottish folk music, and I have always been sensitive to nature, its beauties and its mysteries. My first mystical experience was a Wordsworth moment when aged 23 atop Pen yr Oleu Wen, in a rare spell of absolute silence, nature appeared diaphanous to a majestic presence that shone through it.

JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014

I do hope that you haven't copyrighted 'the procrustean bed of the empirical', because that's fabulous and I hope to add it to my stock phrases!

I do believe that its your British/Irish blood talking in that nature as the divine thing. The Scholastics, as the name supposes, were academics. Anything that wasn't written down, and in Latin too, doesn't count? I'm mostly extrapolating from 'The Dark Ages' and my own scholarly pursuits here. ;)

I've just spotted that you've reviewed 'Jesus Through Pagan Eyes', so I'd add a link into this article.

Yay! VioletteRose! You're on my side of the, ahem, 'great divide'. (Though it doesn't look very much like a proper divide here. More a picket fence with people chatting over it.) Come on over into the Pagan garden, and please bring any paneer dishes and some of those sticky, white Indian sweets that I haven't had for ages.

frankbeswickMay 10, 2014

Callanish at night;awesome and profound. There is a wide variety of modes of experience, religious, mysterious, that cannot be straitjacketed into the procrustean bed of the empirical.They must be taken seriously and vaued, as I believe they are part of what we might call natural revelation, the presence/power of the divine in nature. The Scholastics talked of the book of nature, but it was a thin book that really focused on the design argument, and missed the awesome and mysterious that we find in woods, wells and on mountain tops, etc. It was too university focused.

Hindus as pagans. It's a fair call. When we remember that paganism is a stream, ancient, broad and deep, there are many currents flowing through it. Hinduism certainly fits the criteria, as does Shinto and traditional Chinese religion.

JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014

WordChazer 2 - You're on the right lines with the May Queen (though I hadn't made the link with Miss World! Nice one!), but it's her consort who has more to fret about re sacrifices. I know it's not the most obvious source in the world, but I covered the May Queen/Summer Goddess legends over in my Handfasting Dresses for Beltane article: http://wizzley.com/green-handfasting-dresses-beltane/

In short, the May Queen becomes a Mother, grows old, hibernates (if you think Persephone, you're not a million miles off), then returns again. It's Her presence that allows the plants to grow again. But the May King is the ritual sacrifice. The Americans have a folk legend of John Barleycorn, which I believe apes that cycle. The masculine force, in that context, is pretty much the harvest.

The Dogger Flooding has fascinated me for years! I finally got to see it! Ok, not with a time machine, but with Neil Oliver's History of Ancient Britain, where computer graphics were used to 'dramatise' it. You should have heard my wooting.

Gate-crashing your comment to Dustytoes - Potentially Pagans can afford a wedding and a house in the same year. Our handfastings don't have nearly the same amount of monetary overheads!

JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014

WordChazer - A much belated congratulations on your graduation then!

Just in case I never spelled out mine (though I should imagine it's obvious), my BA was in History with Philosophy and my MA was just History alone.

On behalf of witches everywhere, my apologies for the carnage of the Witchier Than Thou lady. It sounds like she certainly wasn't paying any heed to 'harm none', which is a great shame.

JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014

VioletteRose - If you are Hindu, then I believe that you already class as Pagan. :) At least from the point of view of Abrahamic religions, you are. Though over time, I'm sure that's come to signify my lot as opposed to yours. Let's wait on and see what a Christian clarifies there.

If you are Pagan, then yay! Same gang! :D

Every time I've spoken with a Hindu, or read about Hinduism, I'm so very struck by the similarities between your beliefs and my own Welsh spirituality. In fact, only last night, I was reading a Victorian era book which compared the Gwaedd of the Welsh with the Vedas. Which is now your cue to tell me about the Vedas. :) The Gwaedd is a Great Cry, it tends to be heard when the Goddess of the Earth is moaning the old king and looking for another to take his place.

Yes! We see God in a stone, and infinity in a grain of sand too. I do love Wizzley for all of the learning that we encounter! I'm looking forward to learning more from you.

JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014

Frank - I would like to add that the Isle of Lewis is definitely worth a visit. In addition to the island's many charms, I had one of the most profoundly spiritual moments of my Pagan life in the Callanish stone circle at night.

I'm not sure that part will appeal to you, but the island is still worth a visit!

GuestMay 9, 2014

...and part 2 of the epic:


@Jo again, as far as sacrifices go, you mentioned Abraham and Isaac already. That's the best known one, I'm sure. The annual sacrifice idea also has repercussions into the May Queen and Miss World, Queen for a year...and then?

Someone had better write about the Black Sea Flood because I don't have time to. I should be busy writing reports for work right now, but not until I'm caught up here. And no, I am not still at work. I just need to concentrate and write without distraction so I finished at 6pm and intend to spend the weekend writing all kinds of things.

Also if you're thinking about the Black Sea Flood, what about the Dogger flooding? That's been covered on the BBC lately as being The Event which cut UK off from Europe.

I have asked our work chaplains if their current series of talks on the varieties of faith often practiced has speakers' notes; regrettably it seems as if it does not, so I'm going to have to either approach the speakers myself or undertake research when my project has been submitted and the pressure is off.

@Dustytoes Harry Potter is a big argument in the church over here too. Former friends of mine, devout Catholics, collected the whole series in hardback as it came out. I could never see where that chimed with their belief.

When I moved up here to be closer to my husband when we'd been dating a year, I found even some of his church were more judgemental than others on our relationship, especially once we bought a house together, 18 months before we married. I'd like to know who can afford a wedding and a house in the same year these days? Those who prayed for our decisions as we presented them are still our friends. Those who chose the Scriptural interpretation over trusting our ability to live a Christian life in the same house are no longer on our Christmas card list.

GuestMay 9, 2014

With apologies for the epic...this comment is almost an article in its own right.

@Jo Did I really not tell you what my degree was in? How remiss...my graduation day is right up there with my wedding as one of the best days of my life.

And should Wizzley start to pay me sometime soon, I'd be happy to impart knowledge gleaned in the course of my degree, but until then, I have a rather busy dayjob!

I've met some very sweet and friendly Pagans in recent years, the Witchier Than Thou brigade have thankfully left me well alone lately. I had one friend for a while who combined WTT with bipolar and epileptic absences, now that was scary! Not seen her in over 10 years, nor the group we hung with at the time. She cost me more or less my entire friendship list on and offline, bar four and my then-local vicar, whom she also managed to insult vigorously and roundly. Unsurprisingly.

@Frank 'descends into the underworld and returns', Persephone, or Aeneas in the Aeneid. Those same strands again. Daniel and the lions, Lazarus and Jesus Himself in Christianity.

There's definitely something about that Flood Myth for sure. If the experts can pinpoint the position of Troy and recreate Odysseus' voyage from Troy back to Ithaca, then there's no reason to suppose that the Flood isn't also something of that ilk, passed into mythology and enlarged upon as time went on.

VioletteRoseMay 9, 2014

I had no idea about any of these, Paganism is something new to me. The practice of worshipping multiple deities is there in Hinduism and you are free to worship any of the forms of God, as you like. In fact the multiple deities are different representations of the same supreme power that we call god, but the idea of multiple deities is created to convey the presence of god in everything that you see. In fact, you can worship god in any form, as you like. According to the Hindu beliefs, if you believe that there is god in a stone and worship the stone, then yes there is the power of God in that stone. It is your belief, it is how deep and strong your belief is. In brief, the message is that the presence of god is there in each and every particle in this world, whatever form you choose to worship. This is what my understanding is. Thanks for explaining much about Paganism and Wicca, I have learnt something new!

frankbeswickMay 9, 2014

Interesting, Dustytoes, that you mention being saved. I saw a programme some years ago in which Adam Nicholson was sailing around the British Isles. On stopping at the Isle of Lewis, he was speaking to young Calvinists who were confident that they were saved. "Are you saved, Mr Nicholson? " one asked, and Adam replied sadly that he did not think so. Pure horror on their faces! But I was left with the feeling that the only one there with genuine Christian humility was Adam Nicholson, who was the person in the assembly most likely to be saved.

JoHarringtonMay 9, 2014

I do not count as Christians those who do not behave as Christians. To me, actions always speak louder than words. When people are screaming hatred in my face, with a crucifix around their necks and a banner mentioning God in their hands, I will look at the time. If I can spare it, then I'll introduce them to the teachings of Jesus Christ. They've patently never heard them, even if the interest is there.

In short, no need to apologize. I understand that they aren't Christians in any meaningful sense.

I'm glad that your past experience with Pagans has been a positive one. Despite the anecdotes in this article, on the whole my encounters with Christians have also been good. Like I said, some of my best friends are genuinely Christian, as is half of my family.

Keeping an open mind and learning from what others believe - with acceptance or not - is my way of doing things too. It's the one which makes the most sense to me.

I might add in a section about magic and sorcery, plus one about evangelism. I've written about the former in my comments to Ember below, but they would be useful in the main body too. Thanks for this!

dustytoesMay 9, 2014

Jo, it was a very good idea for you to write about your beliefs as a wiccan. I lived next door to pagans when I first moved to New England. It was my first experience with pagans. My son and their son were friends and I know that the kids were big believers of fairies and dragons. They were nice people and unfortunately I had to move before I had much of a chance to talk with them about why they believed as they did.
The word witch and witchcraft brings to mind acts of sorcery and magic, which goes against Christian beliefs and I would think that would bring the largest accusations that you are not God-fearing, whether you practice magic or not! I know people who won't watch, or let their kids watch, Harry Potter.
Worshiping one God is also a big difference between what I believe and what you believe.
I cringe when I hear stories about Christians who do not have love in their hearts and accuse nastily whenever someone doesn't appear to them to be "saved". What happened to "do not judge"? and "love your neighbor as yourself"? It's sad.
I try to keep an open mind and continue to learn what others believe, which I may or may not accept.

JoHarringtonMay 9, 2014

Ah! Thanks for the insight into the Black Sea Flood. I was unaware about it.

The White Goddess isn't the most watertight of academic endeavours, but it was certainly influential, and continues to be so. I see it more as a springboard of ideas, from which we can dive into theories that are more scholarly.

Fundamentally, all religions are catering for human beings. We have the same basic concerns, and have held them since the beginning of time. Therefore the deities and legends which fill those holes are going to have much overlap. We've been searching for divinity since the moment that we realised we could, and would, die, and there was no telling what happened next.

The God above the God sounds like that beautiful capacity of humanity to always reach further. But bears much musing upon too.

You're right about Hinduism. I've had some interesting conversations with Hindu friends before now, comparing and contrasting our theologies. More comparison than contrast!

frankbeswickMay 9, 2014

I have no plans to write about the Black Sea Flood. It was a real disaster, when the small blockage between the then dry Black Sea depression and the Mediterranean broke and allowed the sea to flood in, causing dwellers there to flee.

What do you think of Graves' The White Goddess? I have read it, and it is clearly a pagan book which ends with a celebration of the goddess, but there are some who criticize it and think it academically unsound.

My own thinking on deity is the Catholic view that there is a source of knowledge of the deity inbuilt in nature and accessible to humans through diligent searching, a view that you will find in Paul's letter to the Romans. This would indicate that from the earliest times the ancient pagan faiths had searched for the divine. Their formulations were genuine attempts to seek the True, the Good and the Beautiful, a term that I have taken from Hinduism in my studies of world religions. We ,however, should be aware that we all, and that includes me, can be wrong in our conclusions about the deity. Continuous reflection, refinement and newer insights are in order. We must bear in mind that Tillich spoke of the God above God, the true deity whose nature rises above our limited conceptions of him/her, and I have no objection to describing God as she.] [Most evangelical Protestants would reject my views on these matters.]

I would like you to reflect on the relationship between Wiccan and Hindu ideas. The idea of a deity known through a plurality of forms is the basis of Hinduism, and it seems to find some reflection in some Wiccan thinking, unless I am mistaken.

JoHarringtonMay 9, 2014

I do love Jung's take on the world. The older I get, the deeper I explore the Mysteries, the more that I think he was onto something.

I remember that back in the early 90s, all us young Wiccans were deeply influenced by Marion Zimmer Bradley's refrain from 'The Mists of Avalon' - all Gods are one God, all Goddesses are one Goddess. (It may be of interest that Marion was actually devout Christian for all that she was writing about such insightful Pagan themes. But some of her best friends and consultants were famous witches like Starhawk.)

It was something that we totally ran with, throwing in there elements from Jung and 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces' by Joseph Campbell. Arianrhod became Mother Mary became Hera became Maya became Juno became Babalon become Liberty et al.

It took a severe backlash against that kind of thinking towards the end of the 90s for all of these deities to separate out again. Obviously I'm talking in general terms, as some Wiccans never thought like that, and some still do. Just recently, I've been returning to that notion. It's the perfect example of returning to the place where you began and seeing it for the first time.

Yes, I've read 'The Golden Bough'. Back then too, I'm not sure that you could call yourself a Wiccan if you'd not read that and 'The White Goddess'. LOL

The sacrifices in the bogs had to be high ranking, or else what was the point? For a sacrifice to be meaningful, it had to involve a proper loss. It had to be something that the person/people making the sacrifice valued, hate to give up, yet willing do so for the greater good. I say 'something' because that's not necessarily a life. It could be a sword or precious gem, as such things were the most common forms of sacrifice.

All of the indications in British and Gaelic records point to the actual King - or tribal chieftain - as the prime candidate for sacrifice, if things went wrong. Some point to darker historical moments, when the Sacrificial King was an annual slaughter, with the man having spent the previous year enjoying the best of everything. This follows through into Christianity too. It wasn't Simon or James who died to save humanity, it was the BEST individual that humanity could offer - Jesus Christ.

As for the rest, I agree with you. I didn't know about the Black Sea Flood though. I'll check that out, unless you're going to write about it!

frankbeswickMay 9, 2014

Jung thought that myths are innate patterns in human consciousness, which he said originated in the collective unconsciousness. Their characters are archetypes. We necessarily think of the sacred in terms of myth and archetype. So it is inevitable that myths cross between religions. But exploring this deep mythical layer of thought is a long task and I have yet to complete my thinking on it.

You ask about sacrificial kings. Read the Golden Bough [sorry if you have read it already.] Recent thinking on bog bodies in Ireland has focused on the fact that they are well groomed individuals who were sacrificed near pagan sacred sites, so they might have been kings sacrificed for the sake of fertility. If the crops were bad, the king must be offered to the goddess to redress the situation. Remember, that the British Isles were matriarchal until much nearer the modern age. The queen would represent the goddess and she probably would change her mate quite regularly, possibly with grim consequences for the king. Note that Christ is seen as a king who was sacrificed. He was hung on a what is sometimes called a tree, sacred to many ancient faiths. He descends into the underworld and returns. The hero is mythically twice born. The dying and rising God is known in mythology, though for pagans it was a season event, while for Christians it was a one-off outside the natural cycle.

You mention the Great Flood. My belief is that our deluge tale is a conflation of the Black Sea Flood story [there are the remains of buildings on the sea bed] and a serious flood that occurred in southern Mesopotamia about 4000 BC. But other floodings have contributed to tales as well.

JoHarringtonMay 8, 2014

I didn't actually know what your degree was in until now. That's really cool. I don't know nearly enough about Ancient Greece and Rome, other than what I've picked up by osmosis over the years. Can you add about a million articles educating me about them to your growing To Write list please?

One of the most convincing theories that I've heard about the Great Flood is that it was the last major Ice Age melting, and memories of that orally passed on.

My apologies for any of the Witchier Than Thou Pagans that you may encounter. They are not representative of our lot.

PS Yes. Pax. <3

GuestMay 8, 2014

Sorry to gatecrash the party, Ember and Jo, but that's some article.

I identify as Christian, even though to many people my views and behaviors are not those of a Christian. Although I wear a crucifix and pray, I don't often go to church these days. I drink, I swear, and I have a degree in Classical Studies - literature, language and history of Ancient Greece and Rome - pinnacle, for most, of the polytheist religions. So the pagan ideals are familiar to me, more familiar perhaps than some of those in Christianity. Especially as my original approach to Christianity came from studying Ancient Greek with a bunch of Theology students and my historical Biblical knowledge is tinged with the realisation that some of these people actually lived, we have historical records for them on the Greek and Roman side.

One of my favorite arguments for religious tolerance is that most major religions and myth cycles have similar sections or mention the same people. You mention that Wiccans tend to see Mother Mary as the Mother Goddess. The Koran mentions Jesus. Most major epic tomes have a flood myth. Something's going on here.

As with Christians, I've met good Pagans and bad Pagans. Some of the good ones have been welcoming, friendly, and sources of inspiration. Some of the bad ones would have had me in a local lunatic asylum from dealing with them if they'd not been carted off there themselves first. As you say, there are fundies in all religions, and I'd rather not associate with the Christian ones, because, as a liberal Christian, I'm one step away from backslid towards Satan and all that in their eyes.

PS: heddwch. (Hedwig?) Peace.

JoHarringtonMay 8, 2014

Dragons can be seen as a very Pagan thing too. St George slaying the dragon was largely a metaphor for being a Christian martyr during the persecutions thereon. http://wizzley.com/england-st-george/

EmberMay 8, 2014

My mom liked the store because they had dragon figurines and my mom was really into dragons for a very long time.

And now I have totally unrelated questions about where dragons and those related legends. :O

JoHarringtonMay 8, 2014

Sorry, I'm finding it hilarious too.

Things like this just highlight how arbitrary it can be, when we seek to condemn or approve things so close to our own religion. And I will repeat what I wrote in the article - our similarities far outstrip our differences, regardless of the religions involved.

As for blasted Charmed... ok, I admit, I enjoyed it when I finally watched it, but it really does have nothing to do with the reality of Wicca. I have the 'Charmed symbol' tattooed on my back, and it was there before the show ever aired. I found out about Charmed because so many people ran up to me in summer and gushed over my 'fandom' tattoo.

EmberMay 8, 2014

Here's irony for you: one of my dad's close friends owns a Wiccan shop in my home town (and practices Wicca herself). I spent many hours just hanging out there as a child, while my dad was working in the area. This was pre and post candle shop incident/ church warning kids and parents of the dangers of Wicca. A few years ago I was home visiting and I looked at her and was like, *O.O "Waaaaait...your shop is Wiccan." She was highly amused at my extremely belated realization, so I had to explain that the obvious had escaped me because I really wouldn't have been allowed in there had anyone realized. I also explained that my mother was a huge Charmed fan, and as an 8 or so year old I had come to the conclusion that whatever made Charmed okay made this shop okay, and my child's assumption that all the things I was seeing/reading must have NOTHING to do with Wicca (specifically) because my parents are totally okay with this place and that candle shop down-right horrified my mother. She found that one absolutely hilarious.

JoHarringtonMay 8, 2014

And that was an interesting read too.

The latter puts me in a wonderful Catch 22 scenario. I can tell you that Wicca has nothing to do with Satanism, because I am a Wiccan. But as a Wiccan, I can't be trusted, because I'm a living snare for Satan. It's beautifully done. Even condemned by it, I can appreciate the elegance.

But I'm not here to tell anyone their Truths. I'm a Wiccan, and our faith is active, not passive. I can challenge others to walk their pathways. I can encourage them to Harm None. But I'll tell no man, nor woman either, what should lie in their heart. Only my own. Y Gwir yn erbyn y byd; a oes heddwch?

As for magic, the etymology there is very interesting. It ultimately comes from the Old Persian - to have power - via Ancient Greek - to be a member of the learned or priestly caste. Magic is definitely dangerous. It means to have enough education to make up your own mind about things; and to use that freedom of information to influence events around you.

By the time the Romans got hold of the word, it moved on to meaning those in charge of their own Fate or fortune. But the Fates and Fortuna meant very specific things to the Romans, dangerous things. Leading to the Late Medieval version of magic - fortune teller, those who can predict the future. A magician.

Meaning evolves. In the late 14th century, those practicing magic - those with learning, education and the knowledge to influence, manipulate or change the future - were deemed able to use hidden natural forces to create marvels. I think we'd call them scientists today, but magicians and alchemists they were then.

Only in Hollywood have practitioners of magic been able to stir their tea with their finger turning in the air. I mean, I can do a variation easily. But my finger would end up scalded.

But it's a fair cop. Wiccans do love candles. And Christians do too.

EmberMay 8, 2014

This was an interesting read.

I recall in like the early-mid 90's or so (pre Harry Potter for sure) Wicca kind of suddenly became a thing in my home town. Where I'd never heard of it before, it kind of just kept coming up in various places. I remember the conversation in which I first learned the word 'Wicca' was when I was being told I couldn't go into this candle shop because it's name was a play on the word "wick" and my mom wasn't sure if it had to do with Wicca or if it really was just a play on words. I argued that it was clearly a candle store pointing out all of the candles. And my mom says to me "Yeah but Wiccans love candles, so it's really just too dangerous to risk, because it's probably a Wiccan store also." I asked her what Wicca was, why is it so bad to even be near them/smell their candles. She told me they practice magic, and that they're the same sort of witches I'd find referenced in the old testament. She informed me the magic is real, and even if they think they're good people they're still dangerous because their magic comes from evil sources (ie devil).

My church taught me something sort of similar. We were basically taught that it was just a fad to get into magic/magick/Wicca and that we might be told that it isn't Satanism, and on the surface it isn't, but that to be able to do magic is evil, as stated in the bible, and any rituals/chants performed to be able to obtain said magic is the equivalent of denying God, and selling your soul to the devil. And while practicing magic might seem fun at first, once the devil had control of you, you were pretty much trapped, and you could be physically or mentally controlled/ become possessed etc, and made to do things like murder. Satanism was differentiated as a conscious choice to deny God and worship the devil, where Wicca was presented as dangerous because they make you think the devil has nothing to do with it.

JoHarringtonMay 8, 2014

I wouldn't ever make the mistake of assuming those people - like that lady spitting on me - were in any way representative of their faith. That's why I hoped that God and Jesus Christ would forgive her.

It's practically a cliche to say that I have a great many Christian friends, but I do. My own parents are Christian. I've had moments when they've cringed at certain sights and reports, apologizing to me on behalf of their whole denomination. It's not necessary.

Nor is it so, when I feel the need to apologize to them, because some idiotic Wiccans have reacted in smugness or false superiority, castigating a whole creed, because it makes them feel somehow clever to do so. That isn't real Wicca either. My friends understand that, and brush my apologies by association away.

There are fundies in all religions. We can only hope that the rest of us can temper those within our creeds.

I'd be interested to see what you came up with about the sacrificial kings.

frankbeswickMay 8, 2014

I have been waiting for you to write this article, Jo. It was a very wise article. I suspect that the Christians who verbally assailed you were evangelical fundamentalists, they have a habit of seeing the world in black and white and so they are likely to think that you are Satanists, and they have been known to burn down occult shops, a practice of which I strongly disapprove, just as I am appalled that you have been verbally assailed and spat at. I have known a few Wiccans and Druids in my time and all of them have been nice to me. I have never met any heathens.

Your point about sacrificial kings is well made. C.S. Lewis, writing in Surprised by Joy, observed that certain mythical themes seem to be fulfilled in Christ. It is a subject which interests me but about which I have much thinking to do.
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