Throughout history, human and animal sacrifice has been a feature in most religions. Some still incorporate it - Voodoo springs to mind - while others have elements in symbolic gestures. The Transubstantiation into the Blood and Body of Christ is a big example there.
This concept remains in Witchcraft and most other Pagan religions too. But as the latter.
We no more slaughter the High Priest at Lughnasadh, than Christians nail their priests to crucifixes each Good Friday. We certainly don't kill babies, any more than Abraham did Isaac. I can't see any context, even historically, when virgin women (nor any female) would be ritually slain - our ancient traditions lean more towards male sacrifice.
Symbolism abounds, but never the reality. At the very least, it would countermand our Golden Rule of Harm None, and land a whole lot of us in jail.
I do have one funny story though, about a local practitioner of Ásatrú (a Norse Heathen religion), which did require an animal sacrifice as part of its rituals. The ancients probably did drive their knives into something alive and writhing, but modern day priests improvise.
This priest had his blade held high in the air, and was about to plunge it down onto his makeshift altar, hidden in the depths of a public park at night. Suddenly there was a loud cry of 'Stop! Police!' and constables emerged en masse from the shrubbery.
A passer-by had seen them entering the park. She'd noted the knife and seen something pink wrapped in the arms of a burly, bearded man. Assuming it was a baby, she'd called the police, and personally I'm glad that she did. Under that assumption, I would have too.
Thus the officers were there to interrupt the moment when the Ásatrú priest would have sacrificed a frozen chicken from Tesco. (With a spare stashed under the altar.)
It happened. I heard the story often from the priest involved, and giggled every time. Remembering that is part of the reason that I always smirk, when I'm asked if Pagans sacrifice animals.
Comments
JoHarringtonJun 24, 2014
frankbeswickJun 23, 2014
JoHarringtonJun 23, 2014
At each position, you may view the Goddess in Her various aspects, and a succession of Gods, within a cyclical story. The God is born, lives large and dies. The Goddess is roaming free as summer, or hibernating in the frozen ground. But that's the agricultural cycle again. There are many, many layers beyond that.
Last night I was chatting with friends about Arianrhod. Her cycle is more akin to the solar system. Her name translates as silver wheel, and we're looking at the stars to explain that one.
Then you get zodiacal ages, which span much longer than a year. When Pisces rose at Spring Equinox, then the fish came to be attached to the dominant religion. Before that it was all about the bulls, or the rams, or the lion. We're reaching the point where it'll be Aquarius rising, hence all of the talk (and great songs) about the Age of Aquarius. That'll see us through the next few thousand years. We'll see water and water-carriers taking over the fish symbolism, regardless of the religion involved.
As a species, we've always looked to the Heavens and the ground for our sacred explanations. As above, so below.
frankbeswickJun 23, 2014
JoHarringtonJun 22, 2014
JoHarringtonJun 22, 2014
Or did you mean something more distinct in your sacred year?
frankbeswickJun 22, 2014
GuestJun 21, 2014
frankbeswickJun 21, 2014
What is interesting to me is the sacred year. Clearly paganism follows the sacred cycles of the seasons, and Catholicism inherited this sacred cycle, grafting Christian feasts onto the older pagan system. But the need for a sacred cycle of seasons and their celebration does not go away, and it lurks underneath the newer Catholic ritual year. This sacred time seems to parallel the need for sacred places. Paganism had its sacred sites, and some of them carried on being held sacred under the newer faith. I am reflecting on the sacred year, for I see the need for the cycle of time to have a sacred dimension, just as we need sacred places. What are your thoughts on this issue, Jo.
JoHarringtonJun 21, 2014
frankbeswickJun 21, 2014
JoHarringtonJun 20, 2014
JoHarringtonJun 20, 2014
GuestJun 20, 2014
frankbeswickJun 20, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 20, 2014
VioletteRoseMay 16, 2014
GuestMay 15, 2014
frankbeswickMay 15, 2014
Goddesses are mentioned in the Bible. However, the prophets railed against the worship of the Queen of Heaven, Astarte, whose worship was sometimes orgiastic. There is a book that might interest you, though sadly I lost my copy during my house move some years ago. It is called "The Great Angel" sorry I have forgotten the author, but it argues that Yahweh is neither a male nor female term [I agree] and that Yahweh could have been regarded as either male or female, but that the male predominated and the female was forgotten.
You might also be interested to know that at the Jewish temple at Elephantine in Egypt, founded by Jews fleeing Nebachudnezzar, Yahweh was worshipped with a female consort. The contributors to this temple would have included those Jews who abducted Jeremiah as a hostage after murdering the Babylonian governor and who took the prophet Jeremiah as hostage.They are mentioned as worshipping the Queen of Heaven. The material on Elephantine is not in the Bible, but the abduction of Jermiah is, as is his clash with worshippers of the goddess.
JoHarringtonMay 15, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 15, 2014
frankbeswickMay 15, 2014
Have you looked at the Wizzley articles by Ologsinquito. She writes really nice Catholic devotional material, some of which is about Catholic saints. You could so something similar. You could write about Hindu holy people. While I am nearly retired from teaching [64 next month and state pension next year] this sort of article would be very informative for people involved in education, many of whom need to have interesting people to talk about in Religious Education lessons.
VioletteRoseMay 15, 2014
@Frank, in Wizzley I have an article on holi celebrations which is a hindu festival. Maybe I should write more as they come.
GuestMay 14, 2014
frankbeswickMay 14, 2014
On Wizzley we have Jo writing on paganism and me writing on Christianity. But we need other faiths, and you can provide us with some Hindu articles. You might write on festivals. I, as an educator, need to know more about Hindu festivals.
VioletteRoseMay 14, 2014
frankbeswickMay 14, 2014
I, for one, would appreciate an article on ardhananisvara and Lakshmi Narayana, as my studies of Hinduism have managed to overlook these concepts. I try to be familiar with the teachings of all religions, but it is an unending task never to be fully completed.
JoHarringtonMay 14, 2014
Looks like you've introduced me and Frank alike to a new avenue of spiritual discovery! Is there an article in this for you?
JoHarringtonMay 14, 2014
Hear, hear on Greek privilege!
frankbeswickMay 14, 2014
VioletteRoseMay 14, 2014
frankbeswickMay 13, 2014
I do agree that while there may be parallels between Celtic and Greek myths, it is wrong to explain the Celtic in terms of the Greek, as though the Greek were somehow in a privileged position over the Celtic.
JoHarringtonMay 13, 2014
In fact, if I see the word Persephone anywhere near Cerridwen again, I think I'm going to scream.
While Gods and Goddesses undoubtedly have a gender, I'm not convinced that the primary force beyond them has such. It's a force, an energy, a something that we can't quite fathom, but the Physicists might. I'm fascinated with what data they're returning.
Hear, hear on the philosophy.
frankbeswickMay 13, 2014
What quantum mechanics throws up is open at the moment, but there is a move in quantum Physics away from the belief that consciousness is either non-existent or peripheral/epiphenomenological to the view that it is primary and effective in the world. Some regard this basic consciousness as divine, possibly the goddess; others regard it as the god of the philosophers; but ultimately, I regard the deity as equally masculine and feminine. I use the word he for God for convenenience, but she is as valid as he. Similarly, the precise relationship of God to the world is yet to be teased out.
The basic Christian view should be that God was in Christ and is still working through the risen Christ in the world, but there is no reason for us to be too tight about the philosophy that we apply to God
JoHarringtonMay 13, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 13, 2014
I have a friend who's doing his MA in Physics. He's close to finishing, then will go on to do his PhD. He's great at explaining stuff to me like I'm a two year old, which is about my level in Physics. Then there's a great void where we don't have the shared language for him to explain much. Until we get to Quantum Physics, which is basically Wicca with some of the words changed.
VioletteRoseMay 13, 2014
GuestMay 12, 2014
frankbeswickMay 12, 2014
As the world revealed by quantum physics is mysterious and beyond conventional conceptualisation, the deity is almost certainly at least as mysterious. So there is the possibliity of unity in plurality; plurality in unity in the deity. I did not know that Wiccans do not think that they have the overview, and this is wise. All would benefit if they realized that after a profound mystical vision lasting three days Aquinas refused to speak and said that all he had written appeared as straw compared with the mysteries that he had seen, but he died of plague a few months later.
JoHarringtonMay 12, 2014
One thing that is hammered home time and time again in Wicca is that we don't have the overview. You'll find people here very, very careful about the wording of our requests, often defaulting to asking for intercession 'for the greater good'. In short, I wanted the baby to survive, because he was my second cousin. There was an emotion impetus, which may well have been a selfish one too.
But was it the best outcome for the baby? At that moment in time, I couldn't have known. He was newborn and premature. Even the medical staff with their educated guesses based on tests and data couldn't have predicted his future health with any precision. Would his quality of life cause us to regret or rejoice in his survival? We didn't have the long view, but we prayed nonetheless.
We include deity here in the hope that the divine does have the overview and the long view both, and that our prayers are answered in the spirit that they were meant - help for the baby - rather than the salving of a selfish emotion.
And yes, we're never quite sure who will answer that call. That's always the danger.
frankbeswickMay 12, 2014
You are probably on the right lines when you speak of energies [though we all grope in the dark here.] In prayer I link my mind/energies to God and hope that my prayers will co-operate in his the effecting of his will for the recipient.
The big issue with prayers and spells is the allies that we choose. Catholics seek help of angels and saints, particularly Mary. There is always a danger when using magic of seeking help from spirits, not all of whom may be of good will. But the principle that it harm none is a good one that should guide all Wiccan practice.
JoHarringtonMay 12, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 12, 2014
You'd be amazed how many Wiccans secretly believe themselves to be divine. Though I suppose it's the same in all faiths. You get Christians who secretly think themselves saints or angels too.
When my cousin's baby was born too early, with a lot of problems, we were told he had a slim chance of survival.
The spellwork begins here.
I raised a circle and imbued it with energy where he survived. I asked both the local Mother Goddess and the national one for help. I called upon our ancestors to witness this. I asked my extensive network of Pagan, Wiccan and Heathen friends to do the same.
In the meantime, a Muslim PhD student, who was with me when I got the text about the baby, went to the the local mosque and prayed on his behalf. A Hindu co-worker did the same in her temple, as did a Bulgarian Orthodox man in his church. (A Sikh friend said she would, but she was a bit flaky and I never heard back. Perhaps she did, perhaps she didn't.)
My auntie left a message on a Methodist forum. Several chapels returned the news that they'd prayed for the baby. She led her own prayers in her own chapel too. My brother's mother-in-law - a Catholic - prayed privately and then took the prayer request to our local priest. When the congregation turned up for mass that Saturday, a prayer for the baby was included.
The baby's grandmother had the Anglicans praying too.
By now, I should imagine every deity in the vicinity was fully aware of the situation. For the Atheists there's also the fact that the medical staff pulled out all of the stops for him.
The spellwork ends here.
The baby did survive. He's now a strapping young teenager. Which spell, or combination thereof, takes the credit depends upon the person recounting the story. Maybe all of them, if you factor in the amount of hope being generated. Divine intervention aside, the psychology kept it positive and that can always help.
frankbeswickMay 12, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 12, 2014
frankbeswickMay 12, 2014
I practice intercessory prayer [praying for others] but I ponder on what is happening in it. We are not simply pleading with the big chief to change his mind or do something. It is deeper than that, but I have yet to formulate a clear view. It may be to do with the phenomenon of distant effects and the ability of mind to be influential, used in harmony with the deity.
EmberMay 12, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 11, 2014
frankbeswickMay 11, 2014
There are some difficulties in ascertaining how the name Yahweh, the name which God gave when Moses asked him his name, evolved, and how it blended with El. It is possible that the name, which means I am who I am, was a play on Ea, a Babylonian deity believed to be a friend of humans. Interestingly, according to the Babylonian account Ea saved humans at the flood, a tale that differs from the Bible story that God sent it.
Even the institution of prophecy was not unique to Israel, as the local pagan faiths had prophets. But Hebrew prophecy drew the Israelite faith into uniqueness by its specific message rather than by the fact of prophecy.
JoHarringtonMay 11, 2014
frankbeswickMay 11, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 11, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 11, 2014
frankbeswickMay 11, 2014
Devas and Ahuras were incompatible. In Hinduism the Devas drove down the asura; in Zoroastrianism the deity is Ahura Mazda and the devas were regarded as demons, particularly Indra, who was seen as a war deva and unpopular with the Iranian Zoroastrians.
VioletteRoseMay 10, 2014
Verses that you have mentioned later.
One thing is that in the third line, it is actually
'Mrtyorma amrtam gamaya' , as mamtrtam is not a word. Actually I am traveling today, so I will look into it later and then let you know if I can find out anything. Thank you!
JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014
Incidentally, just in case anyone reading doesn't know, Pagan comes from the Latin Paganus, which simply means villager or commoner. The chiefs, kings etc tended to be the first to convert to a new religion ahead of a mass conversion. (This wasn't a coincidence.)
Hence you'd end up with a situation where the posh people were all Born Again, let's say Christian, while the scutters in the rural areas were still with the old religion. Originally it would be a matter of fact, "Fashionable society are all adherents of this religion, not the religion of the pagans." (or "not the religion of the villagers.") Then it got a little sneery.
A few generations on, Paganus didn't mean 'common people' anymore, it meant the old religion. Particularly since the word and the conversion coincided with the fall of the Roman Empire, hence Latin went too.
Move on a few centuries and Pagan means any religion that wasn't Christian. Then, more recently, any which isn't Abrahamic. So yes, Buddhist officially counts as Pagan. But you're all welcome in my camp anyway. :)
JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014
Though it does occur to me that half the songs on The Matrix soundtrack were in Sankrit and quoting the Vedas. And by 'occur', I mean, can you help me out here? http://www.bubblews.com/news/2241226-do-you-speak-an-asian-language-please-help-me-with-navras-lyrics
I've never had kheer, but I have had mango ice cream. Delicious! I should mention at this point that I used to have a housemate from the Gujarat. She hated housework, I can't cook. Hence I kept the house spotless and had Indian food every night. Happy days!
frankbeswickMay 10, 2014
frankbeswickMay 10, 2014
When after the war my father was posted to Greece by the army they had Indian porters, who took up Greek easily as it was similar to their languages.
VioletteRoseMay 10, 2014
frankbeswickMay 10, 2014
VioletteRoseMay 10, 2014
I follow the book Bhagavad Gita and my favourite chapter is the Bhakti Yoga which talks about the devotion to god. Other than this I have some knowledge about the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata. This is all my religious knowledge as of now :) may be I should try to understand about more things. Its great you like the Indian sweets :) and I too like the paneer dishes. I would recommend you to try the mango kulfi, which is an Indian version of mango ice cream, and the kheer, which is much like a pudding...In case you haven't already tried these!
JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014
MiraMay 10, 2014
GuestMay 10, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014
frankbeswickMay 10, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014
For those coming here later, those commenting below didn't have reference to the sections on Magic/Sorcery and Spells. Those above possibly did.
Frank - I can certainly empathise with those moments that you describe, with reference to British spirituality and folk music. I agree that its in the blood.
frankbeswickMay 10, 2014
There seems to be something about having Celtic blood. My spirit resonates to traditional Irish and Scottish folk music, and I have always been sensitive to nature, its beauties and its mysteries. My first mystical experience was a Wordsworth moment when aged 23 atop Pen yr Oleu Wen, in a rare spell of absolute silence, nature appeared diaphanous to a majestic presence that shone through it.
JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014
I do believe that its your British/Irish blood talking in that nature as the divine thing. The Scholastics, as the name supposes, were academics. Anything that wasn't written down, and in Latin too, doesn't count? I'm mostly extrapolating from 'The Dark Ages' and my own scholarly pursuits here. ;)
I've just spotted that you've reviewed 'Jesus Through Pagan Eyes', so I'd add a link into this article.
Yay! VioletteRose! You're on my side of the, ahem, 'great divide'. (Though it doesn't look very much like a proper divide here. More a picket fence with people chatting over it.) Come on over into the Pagan garden, and please bring any paneer dishes and some of those sticky, white Indian sweets that I haven't had for ages.
frankbeswickMay 10, 2014
Hindus as pagans. It's a fair call. When we remember that paganism is a stream, ancient, broad and deep, there are many currents flowing through it. Hinduism certainly fits the criteria, as does Shinto and traditional Chinese religion.
JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014
In short, the May Queen becomes a Mother, grows old, hibernates (if you think Persephone, you're not a million miles off), then returns again. It's Her presence that allows the plants to grow again. But the May King is the ritual sacrifice. The Americans have a folk legend of John Barleycorn, which I believe apes that cycle. The masculine force, in that context, is pretty much the harvest.
The Dogger Flooding has fascinated me for years! I finally got to see it! Ok, not with a time machine, but with Neil Oliver's History of Ancient Britain, where computer graphics were used to 'dramatise' it. You should have heard my wooting.
Gate-crashing your comment to Dustytoes - Potentially Pagans can afford a wedding and a house in the same year. Our handfastings don't have nearly the same amount of monetary overheads!
JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014
Just in case I never spelled out mine (though I should imagine it's obvious), my BA was in History with Philosophy and my MA was just History alone.
On behalf of witches everywhere, my apologies for the carnage of the Witchier Than Thou lady. It sounds like she certainly wasn't paying any heed to 'harm none', which is a great shame.
JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014
If you are Pagan, then yay! Same gang! :D
Every time I've spoken with a Hindu, or read about Hinduism, I'm so very struck by the similarities between your beliefs and my own Welsh spirituality. In fact, only last night, I was reading a Victorian era book which compared the Gwaedd of the Welsh with the Vedas. Which is now your cue to tell me about the Vedas. :) The Gwaedd is a Great Cry, it tends to be heard when the Goddess of the Earth is moaning the old king and looking for another to take his place.
Yes! We see God in a stone, and infinity in a grain of sand too. I do love Wizzley for all of the learning that we encounter! I'm looking forward to learning more from you.
JoHarringtonMay 10, 2014
I'm not sure that part will appeal to you, but the island is still worth a visit!
GuestMay 9, 2014
@Jo again, as far as sacrifices go, you mentioned Abraham and Isaac already. That's the best known one, I'm sure. The annual sacrifice idea also has repercussions into the May Queen and Miss World, Queen for a year...and then?
Someone had better write about the Black Sea Flood because I don't have time to. I should be busy writing reports for work right now, but not until I'm caught up here. And no, I am not still at work. I just need to concentrate and write without distraction so I finished at 6pm and intend to spend the weekend writing all kinds of things.
Also if you're thinking about the Black Sea Flood, what about the Dogger flooding? That's been covered on the BBC lately as being The Event which cut UK off from Europe.
I have asked our work chaplains if their current series of talks on the varieties of faith often practiced has speakers' notes; regrettably it seems as if it does not, so I'm going to have to either approach the speakers myself or undertake research when my project has been submitted and the pressure is off.
@Dustytoes Harry Potter is a big argument in the church over here too. Former friends of mine, devout Catholics, collected the whole series in hardback as it came out. I could never see where that chimed with their belief.
When I moved up here to be closer to my husband when we'd been dating a year, I found even some of his church were more judgemental than others on our relationship, especially once we bought a house together, 18 months before we married. I'd like to know who can afford a wedding and a house in the same year these days? Those who prayed for our decisions as we presented them are still our friends. Those who chose the Scriptural interpretation over trusting our ability to live a Christian life in the same house are no longer on our Christmas card list.
GuestMay 9, 2014
@Jo Did I really not tell you what my degree was in? How remiss...my graduation day is right up there with my wedding as one of the best days of my life.
And should Wizzley start to pay me sometime soon, I'd be happy to impart knowledge gleaned in the course of my degree, but until then, I have a rather busy dayjob!
I've met some very sweet and friendly Pagans in recent years, the Witchier Than Thou brigade have thankfully left me well alone lately. I had one friend for a while who combined WTT with bipolar and epileptic absences, now that was scary! Not seen her in over 10 years, nor the group we hung with at the time. She cost me more or less my entire friendship list on and offline, bar four and my then-local vicar, whom she also managed to insult vigorously and roundly. Unsurprisingly.
@Frank 'descends into the underworld and returns', Persephone, or Aeneas in the Aeneid. Those same strands again. Daniel and the lions, Lazarus and Jesus Himself in Christianity.
There's definitely something about that Flood Myth for sure. If the experts can pinpoint the position of Troy and recreate Odysseus' voyage from Troy back to Ithaca, then there's no reason to suppose that the Flood isn't also something of that ilk, passed into mythology and enlarged upon as time went on.
VioletteRoseMay 9, 2014
frankbeswickMay 9, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 9, 2014
In short, no need to apologize. I understand that they aren't Christians in any meaningful sense.
I'm glad that your past experience with Pagans has been a positive one. Despite the anecdotes in this article, on the whole my encounters with Christians have also been good. Like I said, some of my best friends are genuinely Christian, as is half of my family.
Keeping an open mind and learning from what others believe - with acceptance or not - is my way of doing things too. It's the one which makes the most sense to me.
I might add in a section about magic and sorcery, plus one about evangelism. I've written about the former in my comments to Ember below, but they would be useful in the main body too. Thanks for this!
dustytoesMay 9, 2014
The word witch and witchcraft brings to mind acts of sorcery and magic, which goes against Christian beliefs and I would think that would bring the largest accusations that you are not God-fearing, whether you practice magic or not! I know people who won't watch, or let their kids watch, Harry Potter.
Worshiping one God is also a big difference between what I believe and what you believe.
I cringe when I hear stories about Christians who do not have love in their hearts and accuse nastily whenever someone doesn't appear to them to be "saved". What happened to "do not judge"? and "love your neighbor as yourself"? It's sad.
I try to keep an open mind and continue to learn what others believe, which I may or may not accept.
JoHarringtonMay 9, 2014
The White Goddess isn't the most watertight of academic endeavours, but it was certainly influential, and continues to be so. I see it more as a springboard of ideas, from which we can dive into theories that are more scholarly.
Fundamentally, all religions are catering for human beings. We have the same basic concerns, and have held them since the beginning of time. Therefore the deities and legends which fill those holes are going to have much overlap. We've been searching for divinity since the moment that we realised we could, and would, die, and there was no telling what happened next.
The God above the God sounds like that beautiful capacity of humanity to always reach further. But bears much musing upon too.
You're right about Hinduism. I've had some interesting conversations with Hindu friends before now, comparing and contrasting our theologies. More comparison than contrast!
frankbeswickMay 9, 2014
What do you think of Graves' The White Goddess? I have read it, and it is clearly a pagan book which ends with a celebration of the goddess, but there are some who criticize it and think it academically unsound.
My own thinking on deity is the Catholic view that there is a source of knowledge of the deity inbuilt in nature and accessible to humans through diligent searching, a view that you will find in Paul's letter to the Romans. This would indicate that from the earliest times the ancient pagan faiths had searched for the divine. Their formulations were genuine attempts to seek the True, the Good and the Beautiful, a term that I have taken from Hinduism in my studies of world religions. We ,however, should be aware that we all, and that includes me, can be wrong in our conclusions about the deity. Continuous reflection, refinement and newer insights are in order. We must bear in mind that Tillich spoke of the God above God, the true deity whose nature rises above our limited conceptions of him/her, and I have no objection to describing God as she.] [Most evangelical Protestants would reject my views on these matters.]
I would like you to reflect on the relationship between Wiccan and Hindu ideas. The idea of a deity known through a plurality of forms is the basis of Hinduism, and it seems to find some reflection in some Wiccan thinking, unless I am mistaken.
JoHarringtonMay 9, 2014
I remember that back in the early 90s, all us young Wiccans were deeply influenced by Marion Zimmer Bradley's refrain from 'The Mists of Avalon' - all Gods are one God, all Goddesses are one Goddess. (It may be of interest that Marion was actually devout Christian for all that she was writing about such insightful Pagan themes. But some of her best friends and consultants were famous witches like Starhawk.)
It was something that we totally ran with, throwing in there elements from Jung and 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces' by Joseph Campbell. Arianrhod became Mother Mary became Hera became Maya became Juno became Babalon become Liberty et al.
It took a severe backlash against that kind of thinking towards the end of the 90s for all of these deities to separate out again. Obviously I'm talking in general terms, as some Wiccans never thought like that, and some still do. Just recently, I've been returning to that notion. It's the perfect example of returning to the place where you began and seeing it for the first time.
Yes, I've read 'The Golden Bough'. Back then too, I'm not sure that you could call yourself a Wiccan if you'd not read that and 'The White Goddess'. LOL
The sacrifices in the bogs had to be high ranking, or else what was the point? For a sacrifice to be meaningful, it had to involve a proper loss. It had to be something that the person/people making the sacrifice valued, hate to give up, yet willing do so for the greater good. I say 'something' because that's not necessarily a life. It could be a sword or precious gem, as such things were the most common forms of sacrifice.
All of the indications in British and Gaelic records point to the actual King - or tribal chieftain - as the prime candidate for sacrifice, if things went wrong. Some point to darker historical moments, when the Sacrificial King was an annual slaughter, with the man having spent the previous year enjoying the best of everything. This follows through into Christianity too. It wasn't Simon or James who died to save humanity, it was the BEST individual that humanity could offer - Jesus Christ.
As for the rest, I agree with you. I didn't know about the Black Sea Flood though. I'll check that out, unless you're going to write about it!
frankbeswickMay 9, 2014
You ask about sacrificial kings. Read the Golden Bough [sorry if you have read it already.] Recent thinking on bog bodies in Ireland has focused on the fact that they are well groomed individuals who were sacrificed near pagan sacred sites, so they might have been kings sacrificed for the sake of fertility. If the crops were bad, the king must be offered to the goddess to redress the situation. Remember, that the British Isles were matriarchal until much nearer the modern age. The queen would represent the goddess and she probably would change her mate quite regularly, possibly with grim consequences for the king. Note that Christ is seen as a king who was sacrificed. He was hung on a what is sometimes called a tree, sacred to many ancient faiths. He descends into the underworld and returns. The hero is mythically twice born. The dying and rising God is known in mythology, though for pagans it was a season event, while for Christians it was a one-off outside the natural cycle.
You mention the Great Flood. My belief is that our deluge tale is a conflation of the Black Sea Flood story [there are the remains of buildings on the sea bed] and a serious flood that occurred in southern Mesopotamia about 4000 BC. But other floodings have contributed to tales as well.
JoHarringtonMay 8, 2014
One of the most convincing theories that I've heard about the Great Flood is that it was the last major Ice Age melting, and memories of that orally passed on.
My apologies for any of the Witchier Than Thou Pagans that you may encounter. They are not representative of our lot.
PS Yes. Pax. <3
GuestMay 8, 2014
I identify as Christian, even though to many people my views and behaviors are not those of a Christian. Although I wear a crucifix and pray, I don't often go to church these days. I drink, I swear, and I have a degree in Classical Studies - literature, language and history of Ancient Greece and Rome - pinnacle, for most, of the polytheist religions. So the pagan ideals are familiar to me, more familiar perhaps than some of those in Christianity. Especially as my original approach to Christianity came from studying Ancient Greek with a bunch of Theology students and my historical Biblical knowledge is tinged with the realisation that some of these people actually lived, we have historical records for them on the Greek and Roman side.
One of my favorite arguments for religious tolerance is that most major religions and myth cycles have similar sections or mention the same people. You mention that Wiccans tend to see Mother Mary as the Mother Goddess. The Koran mentions Jesus. Most major epic tomes have a flood myth. Something's going on here.
As with Christians, I've met good Pagans and bad Pagans. Some of the good ones have been welcoming, friendly, and sources of inspiration. Some of the bad ones would have had me in a local lunatic asylum from dealing with them if they'd not been carted off there themselves first. As you say, there are fundies in all religions, and I'd rather not associate with the Christian ones, because, as a liberal Christian, I'm one step away from backslid towards Satan and all that in their eyes.
PS: heddwch. (Hedwig?) Peace.
JoHarringtonMay 8, 2014
EmberMay 8, 2014
And now I have totally unrelated questions about where dragons and those related legends. :O
JoHarringtonMay 8, 2014
Things like this just highlight how arbitrary it can be, when we seek to condemn or approve things so close to our own religion. And I will repeat what I wrote in the article - our similarities far outstrip our differences, regardless of the religions involved.
As for blasted Charmed... ok, I admit, I enjoyed it when I finally watched it, but it really does have nothing to do with the reality of Wicca. I have the 'Charmed symbol' tattooed on my back, and it was there before the show ever aired. I found out about Charmed because so many people ran up to me in summer and gushed over my 'fandom' tattoo.
EmberMay 8, 2014
JoHarringtonMay 8, 2014
The latter puts me in a wonderful Catch 22 scenario. I can tell you that Wicca has nothing to do with Satanism, because I am a Wiccan. But as a Wiccan, I can't be trusted, because I'm a living snare for Satan. It's beautifully done. Even condemned by it, I can appreciate the elegance.
But I'm not here to tell anyone their Truths. I'm a Wiccan, and our faith is active, not passive. I can challenge others to walk their pathways. I can encourage them to Harm None. But I'll tell no man, nor woman either, what should lie in their heart. Only my own. Y Gwir yn erbyn y byd; a oes heddwch?
As for magic, the etymology there is very interesting. It ultimately comes from the Old Persian - to have power - via Ancient Greek - to be a member of the learned or priestly caste. Magic is definitely dangerous. It means to have enough education to make up your own mind about things; and to use that freedom of information to influence events around you.
By the time the Romans got hold of the word, it moved on to meaning those in charge of their own Fate or fortune. But the Fates and Fortuna meant very specific things to the Romans, dangerous things. Leading to the Late Medieval version of magic - fortune teller, those who can predict the future. A magician.
Meaning evolves. In the late 14th century, those practicing magic - those with learning, education and the knowledge to influence, manipulate or change the future - were deemed able to use hidden natural forces to create marvels. I think we'd call them scientists today, but magicians and alchemists they were then.
Only in Hollywood have practitioners of magic been able to stir their tea with their finger turning in the air. I mean, I can do a variation easily. But my finger would end up scalded.
But it's a fair cop. Wiccans do love candles. And Christians do too.
EmberMay 8, 2014
I recall in like the early-mid 90's or so (pre Harry Potter for sure) Wicca kind of suddenly became a thing in my home town. Where I'd never heard of it before, it kind of just kept coming up in various places. I remember the conversation in which I first learned the word 'Wicca' was when I was being told I couldn't go into this candle shop because it's name was a play on the word "wick" and my mom wasn't sure if it had to do with Wicca or if it really was just a play on words. I argued that it was clearly a candle store pointing out all of the candles. And my mom says to me "Yeah but Wiccans love candles, so it's really just too dangerous to risk, because it's probably a Wiccan store also." I asked her what Wicca was, why is it so bad to even be near them/smell their candles. She told me they practice magic, and that they're the same sort of witches I'd find referenced in the old testament. She informed me the magic is real, and even if they think they're good people they're still dangerous because their magic comes from evil sources (ie devil).
My church taught me something sort of similar. We were basically taught that it was just a fad to get into magic/magick/Wicca and that we might be told that it isn't Satanism, and on the surface it isn't, but that to be able to do magic is evil, as stated in the bible, and any rituals/chants performed to be able to obtain said magic is the equivalent of denying God, and selling your soul to the devil. And while practicing magic might seem fun at first, once the devil had control of you, you were pretty much trapped, and you could be physically or mentally controlled/ become possessed etc, and made to do things like murder. Satanism was differentiated as a conscious choice to deny God and worship the devil, where Wicca was presented as dangerous because they make you think the devil has nothing to do with it.
JoHarringtonMay 8, 2014
It's practically a cliche to say that I have a great many Christian friends, but I do. My own parents are Christian. I've had moments when they've cringed at certain sights and reports, apologizing to me on behalf of their whole denomination. It's not necessary.
Nor is it so, when I feel the need to apologize to them, because some idiotic Wiccans have reacted in smugness or false superiority, castigating a whole creed, because it makes them feel somehow clever to do so. That isn't real Wicca either. My friends understand that, and brush my apologies by association away.
There are fundies in all religions. We can only hope that the rest of us can temper those within our creeds.
I'd be interested to see what you came up with about the sacrificial kings.
frankbeswickMay 8, 2014
Your point about sacrificial kings is well made. C.S. Lewis, writing in Surprised by Joy, observed that certain mythical themes seem to be fulfilled in Christ. It is a subject which interests me but about which I have much thinking to do.