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Article

Will Australian Law-Makers Spin Trouble for Jagex?

The controversial Squeal of Fortune may soon become a thing of the past, if an Australian senator has his way.

Federal Senator Nick Xenophon is on a personal quest to plug loop-holes in Australian laws which allow young gamers to gamble online. He has Runescape's Squeal of Fortune in his sights. The in-game feature has escaped gambling laws all over the world, because rewards cannot be cashed outside the game. It is precisely this aspect which will be debated in the Australian Senate. If the loophole is plugged, then Jagex will not legally be able to retain gambling-style micro-transactions if Runescape is available Down Under.

Nick Xenophon Targets Jagex in Anti-Gambling Law

As the wheel of fortune turns, the squeal may soon be spun right out of Runescape; if Jagex wants to keep its Australian revenue.

Federal Senator Nick Xenophon is no stranger to the fight against gambling. Some might say that it's his personal crusade in politics.  But until now his focus has been the big concerns, like betting shops and huge poker games.

Only now his attention has been caught by a series of high-profile stories involving young Runescape players. Huge bills have been run up on their parent's credit cards, as they spin the wheel for in-game profit.

In private correspondence, Xenophon's spokesperson Anna Gordon explained, "According to gambling research experts, fantasy-based games like Runescape are as addictive as poker machines because they operate on the same processes, especially as some games allow players to bet using real money through credit cards or PayPal.

"However, because any credits or ‘winnings’ can’t be cashed-out the games are exempt from Australia’s Interactive Gambling Act."

It's precisely this law which Xenophon is seeking to amend.  He will be introducing his proposal to his fellow legislators, when the Australian Parliament meets in February 2013.

Squeal of Fortune Allows Wealth to Dictate Game-Play

Since Jagex moved beyond the purely cosmetic awards, Squeal of Fortune became probably their most controversial game update ever.

To be fair, the majority of Runescape players probably care little for the wider question of gambling ethics. They're largely the kind of risk-takers who will frequently risk hard-won weaponry against a huge boss fight.  But Squeal of Fortune has wider implications to them.

It allows real world money to be used to effectively purchase experience and items. For the first time, the size of your wallet impacts upon the edge that you have in the gaming world.  The poor grind repetitive tasks in game-play, while the rich buy it with micro-transactions.  In a time of recession, this heightens the sense that it simply isn't just.

Which is why many turned to their governments for help.

  • Runescape News: Uproar Over Jagex Microtransactions

    Real world trading had always been a no-no; in-game gambling had been discouraged. Then came Squeal of Fortune.

  • Will Genie Solomon Prove a Goldmine for Jagex?

    It was inevitable that Runescape would transform into a Nexon clone. Runecoins sees real world money cashed in for cosmetic game items.

What Australia's Law Might Mean for Runescape

Ever since the introduction of Squeal of Fortune, players have been contacting their governments for assistance. Only Australia appears to have taken this seriously.

The Interactive Gambling Act, in Australia, provides the framework within which companies can offer gambling services on-line.  If money can be won or lost, then it's covered by the legislation, but only if the rewards are real world.

Jagex have dodged this bullet by ensuring that all of the potential prizes in Squeal of Fortune can only be used within Runescape.  It may be an XP lamp, which boosts the player's skill abilities, or a weapon which gives an edge in combat.  But they are all fundamentally pixels. 

Anna Gordon continued, "The amendment proposed will mean that if actual money can be lost on the game it will be defined as a “gambling service” and therefore prohibited."

Jagex is likely to argue that no money is ever 'lost', because the player always wins something. It might be a relatively useless in-game item like a cabbage, but it's still a prize. This isn't a view shared by Federal Senator Nick Xenophon, who will be advising that these are precisely the kind of loopholes which have to be plugged.

These are big stakes for both parties.  If Xenophon is successful, then it's inconceivable that Jagex will side-step the problem by making Runescape unavailable in Australia.  That would be a massive player-base locked out and a hit to their profits which couldn't be absorbed.  Nor would they simply stop Squeal of Fortune being available in that country only. The logistics of altering the game code would be very cost prohibitive.

In short, if the feature can't be run in Australia, then it's unlikely to be included anywhere else.  It could well mean the end of the unpopular cash-cow for the whole of Runescape.

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Updated March 19, 2014

Comments

JoHarringtonFeb 26, 2014

We have Twitter. :D Though seriously, we also have the Press Complaints Board.

FargyFeb 26, 2014

Here in Aussie we have http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/

Nothing like your MediaWatch group. But I was wondering if you had something similar to ours.

JoHarringtonFeb 26, 2014

You are a giant softie, that's why we love you. And it's always nice to find people fighting your corner. Hence me getting so teary on Monday (http://www.bubblews.com/news/2441977-no-apologies-from-the-times-nor-mike-wade)

I'll go and check it out, and alert my Runescape friends to it too. <3

Oooh! It sounds like you're getting somewhere! Thanks for continuing the good fight, long after the rest of us burned out and gave up.

FargyFeb 26, 2014

Awww. I'm always deeply touched when people offer help, it always surprises me and gets straight past in to my heart. I've been known to get watery eyed. Vivathia calls me a giant softy.

Some small news. Which I've put on http://www.reddit.com/r/newscape/new/

If you've got any mad Reddit friends who want to read 300 articles about Runescape, tell them to have a peek. :)

I write about 3 a day, it takes minutes and is about the same creation ratio of my Runescape forum posts. Admittedly some are just links and a title.

Anyhow a lovely gent from the UK Gambling Commission sent me a link for UK based gaming gambling which the imminently defunct Office of Fair Trading had some jurisdiction over.

http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2014/05-14?utm_source=EB%20100214&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=fair%20trading#.Uw3SqeOSxvA

JoHarringtonFeb 25, 2014

I see that my shape-shifting powers are showing again. *smirk*

*hugs*

And no, I don't worry about your lovely self, unless you actually send up a flare. Then it's MAN DOWN and me rushing in with emergency ppots and sharks.

FargyFeb 25, 2014

Hello Jo :)

I love a chat. Mostly to myself on Reddit lately

http://www.reddit.com/r/newscape/new/

Not sure why I'm building up that body of ideas, it's fun but I've no reason to do it. Sometimes you just gotta do what you do.

If you ever worry about my rationality, don't be a'feared, everything is cool and clear. I worry that I make people worry, because I can be a little intense and a little different.

Your chat about the Titanic has proven involving. I wonder what the drivers for that are. Something about our sexual roles, but I'm still entangled in the bits and pieces.

Thanks for everything Jo, you've been and continue to be, an amazing little sprite.

*hugs*

JoHarringtonFeb 25, 2014

Interesting development! Having a chat is wonderful, isn't it?

FargyFeb 24, 2014

Last year I started chatting to Singaporean interests about Runescape and social gaming gambling. Thank you Melvin Tan of Corporate Relations Division in the Ministry of Home Affairs. For some reason I've images of Harry Potter now.

It was a nice surprise to see this pop up in one of my scrying pools,

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=794474ac-1586-493c-84d9-e47aea247e52

I'll always believe in the power of having a chat.

JoHarringtonNov 28, 2013

Please do report back. :D

FargyNov 28, 2013

Okay thanks for passing the whispering vine on to me. :) I wrote to the author of the Develop Online article and asked whether he had any more news.

Hopefully by March-April something grows of it.

JoHarringtonNov 28, 2013

Nope, just the grapevine whispering to me.

FargyNov 28, 2013

There is an article about the Singapore move? Or the article I linked did you mean.

JoHarringtonNov 28, 2013

Yes! In fact that story on Develop was there, then disappeared. This is the first time I realised that it's back.

FargyNov 28, 2013

Ok, that tallies in with http://www.develop-online.net/news/jagex-set-for-new-round-of-layoffs/0115664

Thank you for that piece of news. I'll continue knocking on doors over in Singapore then.

One day this will be over and long gone, and I think I'll be happy I did what I do.

JoHarringtonNov 28, 2013

Not long before Runefest. Certainly within a month.

FargyNov 28, 2013

Ah. I thought one of their emails had odd sentence structure. Is that recent, as in the last few months? Jagex supposedly shed their expensive support staff for cheaper staff I heard. Wondering if the UK staff got the Singapore Sling.

JoHarringtonNov 28, 2013

I love how the strands come together. But yes, Jagex's customer service is currently lodged in Singapore.

FargyNov 28, 2013

Singapore came up in another conversation not related to Runescape, but it triggered an instinct to chase it up.

Singapore likes order and I think I can help them order the chaos of online gambling, by enlisting the aid of their real world casinos. To me it's a natural alliance, governments shouldn't want money leaving their country untaxed, unregulated and for no benefit to the country, only costs. And brick and mortar casinos should feel a little envy at the lack of costs that online casinos and gambling games like Runescape have.

It's just an idea, it'll be fun to see if I can breath some life into it.

JoHarringtonNov 28, 2013

Do you have another wind singing Singapore at you right now? Or instinct alone?

FargyNov 28, 2013

Jagex has customer service? I think pirates must have kidnapped them on their way to Singapore.

I just go where the wind blows me, and it blows a Singaporean air now.

A benevolent dictatorship I've heard Singapore described as. No idea what it looks like.

JoHarringtonNov 28, 2013

Isn't Singapore where Jagex's costumer service currently resides?

FargyNov 28, 2013

There are probably some other implications that I've no idea of. I've added Singapore to the countries I'm chatting in. No idea what will happen from that.

I agree Ash is alright. Good people.

JoHarringtonNov 28, 2013

So the Jagex game-cards could well end up behind the shutter in the cigarette counter, like other addictions? I doubt it, but the mental image affords some wry amusement.

ModAsh is lovely.

FargyNov 27, 2013

Mod Ash's response...

Mod Ash ‏@JagexAsh 10h
@Fargrist I've sent it to our MTX designer. I'll let you know what I hear back.
Reply Retweet Favorite More Collapse

FargyNov 27, 2013

Well they know about it now, Mod Ash was kind enough to pass it on to their MTX designer, who will no doubt bring it up elsewhere. Mod Ash has always been a goodun.

It brings other things into consideration, like display of game time cards in stores. The cards would need changing and the location of them too. Probably going to effect quite a few other things.

JoHarringtonNov 27, 2013

Ah! Hot off the press there! I wonder if that will be judged by IP, or if Jagex will just raise the entrance age of the whole game to 15.

FargyNov 27, 2013

Letter from the South Aussie Premier.

http://www.reddit.com/r/newscape/comments/1rjjuf/runescape_to_become_ma15_in_south_australia/

JoHarringtonNov 19, 2013

I'll come aboard if there's a sure stock of limes and plenty of rum. But I'm not conquering new worlds. That's soooo 14th-19th century.

FargyNov 19, 2013

I love this game, this looking into the future and steering the ship. Except I don't get to steer.

The story might be better if I did. It would certainly be more fun even if the reefs were all around.

You are a shipmate true and true. So while we dance through the rigging in the salt air spray, it's been a joy to talk here, to sing out the 'wares and soundings. For me for sure, for you hopefully. :)

JoHarringtonNov 19, 2013

That's quite a comprehensive apprising. Thank you. This is the moment where I'm supposed to add things that I've divined and you overlooked, but I really have nothing. You've seen much further than I have on this one.

FargyNov 19, 2013

I keep Mark Gerhard updated with what's happening, and the Jagex directors. And the South Aussie Premier knows that Runescape has gambling.

At a crossroads for a bit, working on Sleep of Fall, got 5 Runescape/MMO ideas to write down, and working on the house (it was built in 1909) and sorting out our fund raising and night games at the club.

The weather here is divine. The year here has been a happy one. In a perfect world Jagex would contract me for three months to sort their direction out. I like people thriving, and that includes making money. Instead, I am their Adversary, their Outcast.

*grumbles*

On pure math there will be zero members in Runescape in less than two years. Losing 1000 members per day right now. I was hoping the rate would have slowed over the last year, and it has, but it's still at killer levels. In three days new game controllers get released with games like Assassin's Creed ~ Black Flag coming out at the same time.

In Feb all the year long memberships expire. Next year Elder Scrolls Online is released as an MMO.

So normal external factors are contributing, but what's probably doing the most damage is the internecine war between EoC and 2007 and the development thinking that led to that creation, and the others like SoF and Bonds.

And externally again, players like myself, or bugabuse, or haxunit, or the falsely banned, in short the disaffected.

I see goldfarmers differently because they thrive on a thriving game. It's in their interest for the game to grow. Whereas the others listed above take it more personally. For one huge example the 2007scape survey that showed about 90,000 members that would not play EoC, they restarted instead. Out of 460,000 members that's a huge chunk. And we know people don't like restarting, the Prestige Poll showed that.

At first glance it looks unfixable. And maybe it is, it certainly is if Jagex doesn't change what they do.

JoHarringtonNov 19, 2013

I wonder how Jagex will respond to this? Probably by arguing that SoF isn't gambling. Let the battle commence.

FargyNov 18, 2013

One step at a time...

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/19900193/sa-to-set-new-rules-around-gambling-apps/

JoHarringtonNov 14, 2013

I agree with every word of that. I remember why I started with RS in the first place. It was to immerse myself in a stress-free world, where all I did counted towards something. It was to live in a society where the playing fields were level and all things were equal.

MMOs and television programmes have always been escapism, to salve minds which are exhausted by reality.

FargyNov 14, 2013

Storywise there is no store to how much imagination we can put into a game.

Journey shows us that, without even letting players talk.

But even in the more traditional one-directional stories we see evolution of imagination.

Shows like Wilfred, Simpsons, South Park; assume the parts of a dog, an idiot and children to tell the story of the world. That assumption of innocence seems to appeal to viewers. It means we seek it. Maybe we are sick of the story told by the world news.

Other stories like American Dad also assume innocence, although in this case it's the innocent enthusiasm of a patriotic murdering CIA apparatchik.

These stories are popular despite the formulaic approach of television production. It shows imagination finds a way.

MMOs are, to me, very formulaic, they have thrived because players create their own story and forgive the basic staging.

But imagine if players could create their own Wilfreds and other imaginations in an MMO.

It wouldn't need much. Minecraft has the beginnings of it. A childlike innocence to the story, but the important part is that the player gets to create.

I think the evidence is there, that players want imagination. Both to experience it and display it. To see into other worlds, like you saw into your pen-pals world.

We have the tools, we just need the imagination.

JoHarringtonNov 13, 2013

Fun, connection and life drama as an international concern, rather than a small clan at home. It's not even gone from national to international. It's gone from literally the home and neighbouring houses, a few friends dotted further afield at the most.

I had an Australian pen-pal when I was a teenager. It was quite exotic conversing with someone on the other side of the world. I now do that on a regular basis, all day long, if I wish. I'm having a practically real time conversation with you now. That's the difference of the internet, with MMOs and Facebook just being its expression.

FargyNov 13, 2013

In a way I see Facebook as a game. Facebook set up some basic rules and the means for players to connect. After that players created the content. With Facebook Likes as a scorecard.

Facebook is at its peak I think and that whole capitalism thing is setting to work on making people pay to use it. Which increases the cost and decreases the use.

But the ability for Facebook to show how we can be a Global village, with everyone just a click away, that's starting to illuminate the promise of the internet. When we first logged into an online game and thought wow that character over there is another real person.

I think MMOs can do more, in all sorts of ways. They give a reason for people to come together and they can help people, which people will pay for. And they could do it in a fun, complex and interesting environment.

JoHarringtonNov 13, 2013

I think that, in ten years time - maybe less, we'll be saying, 'Which one was Google again?' Yes, the internet changes that much. Even Yahoo is making a comeback now, and I thought they were doomed.

The MMO wasn't nearly explored enough, before the stamp of Capitalism kicked it in the teeth. It was a good idea which is yet to fully see its day.

FargyNov 13, 2013

Love. Of money, is the root of all Google. In Australia last year they grossed a bill or two and paid $74k tax. Not even enough for the Tax Office to check its records. It's also got the business interests of the US government involved so I tend to think things will get worse. But there is hope, the internet keeps changing. MySpace used to be the big thing. Yahoo too. Facebook has a real population drift happening.

And I keep thinking the MMO isn't fully explored.

JoHarringtonNov 13, 2013

I've long since scoffed at the idea of Google actually abiding by their motto. In fact, I have a button on my toolbar called 'don't be evil'. The very purpose of it is to rearrange Google search engine results to how they would be without all of the aggressive marketing and sponsored links. Often that's the only way you can actually find the search results pertaining to your query!

I didn't know that they were involved with Burning Man. That worries me.

FargyNov 12, 2013

lol yeah Google may say its unofficial slogan is "Don't be evil" but it's all tangled up in US politics now and that's a cesspool of evil.

But it can't hurt to try a few ideas out. Google has the equipment and money. Perhaps I can sell them on the idea of a World Game, that unites people from any part of the world.

They are into Burning Man, so maybe they do have the odd candleflame of idealism still burning in their hearts.

JoHarringtonNov 12, 2013

:D It seems to me, at this point, that is the way forward.

Wow! You've seriously gone for it. Go you! But you want Google to get into gaming? *shudders*

FargyNov 12, 2013

:) Then I'd put some energy into the possibilities.

I've emailed Google with ideas about how an MMO could work, no reply but it's fine, just typing things out helps clarify ideas. All part of practicing writing. 15 articles to go for my target. Only 480+ to catch you up. :P

JoHarringtonNov 12, 2013

You're describing RS as it was in the past, when Andrew Gower still had the reins and he cared about his game. It's like saying that the Titanic was a really pretty liner, shortly before the ice-berg loomed in the distance.

I'd love to see Runescape turn hard to starboard and not only miss the ice, but find its way back home again. But it won't happen as long as the directors care more for the bottom line - increasing it, even at the detriment of their product - than they do for the game itself. They don't believe in magic. They can't see it. They can't grasp that it even existed. They'll walk away laughing as RS plummets under the surf.

Another article for you. What would happen if, after RS has been run into the ground and is twitching mostly abandoned on the floor, there was a player-base buy out? What then?

FargyNov 12, 2013

Mark Gerhard took the time to write and wouldn't take the time to shake hands. He would rather wash his hands and said our bans were a matter for player support.

Trouble is nobody I've contacted at player support (Harriet Lester and so on) is willing to help, so it obviously is a management decision. Mark Gerhard probably, as I do email the Jagex directors from time to time.

In the past, a small project for me was three months and $400k, with a large project being 5 years and $250million. Those jobs gave me some satisfaction. But I am actually finding this project more interesting. Not just because the odds are against me, but because in MMOs we have something that could be marvellous.

I'd really like to help that progression, that evolution of how people play. I think getting rid of the gambling component is a small part of that puzzle.

We have more to do after that.

Maybe Runescape will be part of that, maybe not, but it has the existing framework to be something bigger. Rather than have to build something up from the ground again.

That ability to engage from around the world. For people to play together. That's magic.

When I think of those possibilities, nothing else is visible. Petty revenge matters not.

Jagex will unban us one day.

JoHarringtonNov 12, 2013

So you can start again, be there - presumably with the same names - and be welcomed with open arms. But you can't have your old charas back, with all of their levels and goods.

That just smacks of revenge to me.

FargyNov 11, 2013

That's what I think, and said, in the articles. Relying on their largest customer group is the wrong move.

And they don't have much time until the final analysis. Two years tops at current loss of memberships.

It doesn't help they have people like me, and worse, after them. But they can't quantify that, so we are invisible costs to them.

What's puzzling is Mark Gerhard said we are free to start new characters but he wouldn't even think of unbanning us. Pride is the only reason I can think of.

Which makes me prideful and indignant *struts angrily*. Nah.

Just makes me sad, it makes a sad ending for Runescape much more certain.

JoHarringtonNov 11, 2013

Ooops indeed, sweet dreams.

It's quite illuminating, when you lay the figures out starkly like that. But then 2007 was always about much more than combat. The charm lay in people choosing their own way to play the game. Everyone had their route, but could interact with each other too. It was a fully working world, with the mixture of personalities which that entailed. Not a limited world pandering to just one type of person.

I hope they realise that in the final analysis.

FargyNov 11, 2013

Old School also is 2007scape and that was the common private server time frame. That or 2006.
And I don't see those old reasons popping up in there. Things like the PvP.

There must be considerable overlap with some players probably assuming things like the combat system and then picking their favourite on top of that.

On face value 60% of one third of members still rate the combat system as their highest reason for being on OSRS. Which after today's drop of 10k members is 465,606.

After the accounting...93,121 members are avidly opposed to EoC, they rate it as their highest reason for being on OSRS.

That goes some way to explaining the community friction.

Speaking of which I have a few people that stalk me since I started posting on Reddit. I think they want me to stop and are trying to talk me into stopping, or abuse me into it.

I don't think they realise how much I enjoy this struggle against corporate blindness. Holy crap it's 3:30 am. Woops.

Thanks for everything.

JoHarringtonNov 11, 2013

Good find! I found the top reasons for playing quite interesting.

http://gyazo.com/12544fa373f674651191f035d0d2fb35

FargyNov 11, 2013

You asked about some stats for female/male players on RS, here is a poll under way that closes on 17th

So far 94% male of 200+ votes, and some other interesting info...

http://services.runescape.com/m=poll/a=12/c=Uv2x9-b0H5o/oldschool/results.ws?id=697

FargyOct 8, 2013

I love humour, I think that ability shows a whole human approach. Insight, intelligence, wisdom and all those other good things that identify straight to our hidden souls.

By the way I wrote an article on cities and not sure where to put it, I put it in immigration but that doesn't feel right. Could you suggest a better spot?

Here it is...

http://wizzley.com/a-timely-tale-of-three-cities/

JoHarringtonOct 8, 2013

I absolutely adore Bill Bryson! I have a pile of his books here. One of the biggest compliments that I was ever given was in Runescape. One of the players told me that my RS blog read like a Bill Bryson book! :D

FargyOct 7, 2013

I heard the EoC made boss monsters easier. There is always that tendency though, to make monsters tougher, then players complain, then they become easier. It's called balancing I guess, but I don't believe that sort of balance ever finds a level. I'd prefer more variety of content, a balance degustation of the whole menu.

Life is bloody marvellous. Sydney was very pleasant in the Randwick area. Not sure about the rest of Sydney. Tourism articles should do alright, I like Bill Bryson as a travel writer. Always gets a laugh out of me.

JoHarringtonOct 7, 2013

I was speaking with someone last week who'd just done Nomad on the first try. Apparently Nomad is MUCH easier now, than when he first came out.

It sounds like you've had a great time in Sydney. My plans are for some articles here on Poland. Apparently it's a virgin category, so I have a full run at topics! There's already a few on Australia though: http://wizzley.com/articles/best/?cat=324&level=2

FargyOct 7, 2013

Ah yes forgot about Nomad, took me 11 tries or so. I'm crap at that sort of stuff, and to some extent it's a gating mechanism that excludes players. So I'm not really in favour of that sort of content being too important, otherwise it ends up excluding people too much. Nomad is another one that had friends helping each other, but it was firecapes that for a few years had a specific service on gold selling sites. Because the cape was a visible status symbol and part of the task system. I also railed against this quite a lot at the time. But all that did was put Mods Maz and Mark H off-side, which was unfortunate. I couldn't believe they didn't see the mass cheating of firecapes as a problem.

*grumbles*

I had a lovely five days in Sydney, just sat around playing with the kids and going for walks in the parklands. And watched the Australian Rugby League grand final. Was a good game.

Anyhow tomorrow start with my articles again, and I'll flesh out the idea I have for my fiction. Chatted about in depth with my sister and brother in Sydney, was fun chatting over some wine and beers about fun things.

JoHarringtonOct 7, 2013

Weather - I've just come back from Poland, where all of the natives were huddling under hats and scarves complaining about the cold. Both of us Brits thought it was quite mild! Which teaches us that Britain is actually colder than Poland.

Jad - I failed several times there and never did get my fire cape! In fact, I was crap at combat full stop, being prone to panicking at the salient moments. Did I ever mention my 75 attempts at Nomad before I beat him?

FargyOct 7, 2013

Because Australia is a country of new frontiers and new fears. Summer is old and comfy for you there is no room for personal growth.

FargyOct 1, 2013

Melbourne would be a bit of a change for you, a little quieter perhaps?
I love the bohemian, slightly run down feel of Melbourne, it's the home of a friend of 45 years.
She's a crazy wild.
Melbourne is known for having four seasons in one day, seems you got winter yesterday. :)

FargyOct 1, 2013

Our Tourism Bureau was puzzled why that jovial video never worked very well. We thought people would be dying to get here.

Back in WoW my priest had 80 keybinds. It depended on what role he had and so forth. But you need a speech program to play WoW in groups, and you need to group if you want to play most content. Typing isn't possible with the amount of clicking going on.

I always get really hyper before intense combat sessions, my hands shake. Always makes Jacqui giggle. It is engrossing though, the longest fight I ever had was in a RTS called Dark Reign. Five hours of fighting and then we called it a draw, was shaking at the start and the end. The time disappeared in what seemed like seconds.

In some cases there seems a barrier that needs to be crossed. People need help to learn how to do things. Barbarian Assault was a perfect example, if you helped people any group of level 70s could get to the Queen. If you didn't have the patience for that it was just an everlasting mess of quitters.

Content like Jad highlighted that too. Because it was solo and there was no training for it, intitially the fire cape was a sign of a good clicker, but then those who were excluded started getting friends to "help" do it. And then the fire cape was needed for a task, and it became worse.

I think anyone can enjoy that intense combat arena, it spikes the adrenaline, but you need friends, you need a wading pool if not friends.

Was a great storm, not perfect, needed more thunder and lightning. But the gale was so strong I felt the bed shake as I was sitting on it. It felt like a mini earthquake.

Come to Australia!

*sings*
You might accidentally get killed
Your blood is bound to be spilled
With fear your pants will be filled

Australia! It's to die for!

JoHarringtonOct 1, 2013

We recently had the Canting Away festival, so I was actually logged on. We took on Zilyana and it was awful. Not only was I forced to fight with mage (which I've never done, I was a ranger by choice), but it was all about mashing keys. I ended up panicking a bit during the kill count part, which wasn't fun.

The storm sounds amazing! *watches the video* Remind me never to come to Australia.

FargySep 30, 2013

lol
Well I guess in an ideal parallel world there would be 50% females. Which isn't that far from 9%, but I suspect that 9% is quite low for a computer culture activity which has no physical barriers. Might have some cultural barriers that stop some women who might believe it's nerdly.
But there are plenty of men who think the same thing.
The competitive nature of high scores and beating your buddies might be what draws more males to RS.
It's more likely the unbalanced community makes women feel awkward when they first play, that whole " buying gf " thing and the "omg it's a girl!".
Personally I'd advertise to 30 year old women if I was Jagex. But they would have to lose the whole keyboard mashing combat, so that keyboards could be more used for chatting.

...and then the power went out.

We had an awesome night here, 120 kmph winds took out the power and we had a dust storm in the middle of the night followed by rain.

We sat out under the carport, it was like being in a drive-in cinema from years ago.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNEeq5qGh8I

JoHarringtonSep 30, 2013

Oh dear. I should have thought of Alexa, seeing as I have it installed! LOL The thing with Alexa stats is that they only register those with the toolbar or tracking device installed. I wonder if female players are more likely to do that?

My Mummy warned me about men saying things like that last line. :p

FargySep 30, 2013

It was a youtube breakdown of a RS sites viewer. Forget who put it up now, but it had a million or so hits from memory.
The youtube owner can do a statistics chart and the owner posted it. So it assumes youtube viewers are the same population as rs players.
Anyhow youtube thought the viewers were 91% male and of the 9% females most were in the 30-40 age group.
Alexa gives a breakdown but says RS female to male ratio is the same as general internet ratio. Which is vague.
Alexa is good to have a peek at, google trends is handy too. I like how the growth of WoW and Runescape mirror each other.

I'll take a look around see if i can find that site again.
Cheers.
I wrote two new articles today, I'm not fussed about quality yet, it's not as deeply woven as I'd like but...
Never mind the quality, feel the width.

JoHarringtonSep 30, 2013

Obviously we're both generalizing here, plus there's a whole lot of nurtured behavior gone into it. But yes, on the whole, it's rarely the women who I see going mad to watch sport.

Where are you getting the RS demographical information from? I'd be interested to read that. It seemed to me that there were as many females and males playing, at least in my clan. Though how representative of the whole that was, I don't know.

FargySep 28, 2013

Og no understand this word alpha, Og smash.
I agree, it's about gender. We don't see females in these sorts of sports for the most part and not ever on a more popular level. People want to see men contend, and men want to contend to find their place in the hierarchy, the pecking order.
Which ties into Runescape having 90% males. And why RS content gravitates to killing stuff.
And that tie shows why I love MMOs so much. Society in a walnut shell. A cosm writ nut size.
It's that gravity well of MMO to sport that is killing RS. It should have kept a few different paths as options. For example a place of learning as well as fun.

JoHarringtonSep 28, 2013

This is all valuable insight for me. I can see now why some of my friends are so obsessed with sport. It's basically being an alpha male, without having to actually kill someone. :)

FargySep 28, 2013

Oh, no it wasn't my team. I was watching for the fun of watching a good game of footy and having some beers with a couple of mates. I don't really follow teams, have played a shitload of sports, generally preferring the more violent ones. Rugby League, Lacrosse and Aussie Rules. Rules is one of the most difficult games anyone will play. If some bloke reckons he is hard as nails, get him to play Aussie Rules to lift his game to higher plane.
Cricket isn't bad either, I prefer batting. Taking bat to ball is thrilling.
Oddly enough no team I've captained ever lost a game. Drew games but never lost, didn't realize that until a year or so ago. I think that I have odd competitive streak where I love winning but need to make sure everyone wins. No business team I led ever failed either, but that's nowhere near as exciting as sport.
Grabbing an opponent while both of you are hurtling at full speed and tossing them in a tackle is exhilarating. Roar like a tiger caveman like fun. Better than sex for men of that age and disposition, of which I was one.
And that's a secret peek in to the world of men.
Time for some beer and pasta. *grunts and scratches, and readjusts tackle*
:)

JoHarringtonSep 28, 2013

Iechyd dda!

Male bonding rites sounds like an article for you, not me. I'm a woman. ;)

Congratulations on your team winning. :D

FargySep 28, 2013

It can be. It is terribly complicated, for example this morning at golf, one might suggest getting a beer and asking your golfing partners if they want one. With the unspoken assumption that if they say yes that they will repay at some unknown future time, but most probably at the next close proximity to a bar.
You should write an article on the ritual of sharing this drink.
It is almost religious, actually probably is, given that Jesus was into sharing food and drink but tended to wine-drinking. Which is probably what made him unpopular.
And of course I'm sure that beer served a part of history in many other cultures, but the sharing of it amongst men is interesting.
There are many other rituals involving brewing and the wild consumption of the results.
I'm still drunk from today's golf and watching the Australian Rules Grand Final. Hawthorn won, in a close and hard fought game. So I don't want to spoil my immersion by examining the issue too closely.
Might immerse myself in another beer, or immerse it inside me.
Hope that helped.
By the way, it's your round.

JoHarringtonSep 28, 2013

Is it signaled by the universal cry of friendship, "This is my round!"?

FargySep 27, 2013

Manly thanks; involves much beer, some grunting and a little scratching in an elegantly subtle display of formal courtesies dating back to Man's earliest days.
Brings a tear to the eye it does.

JoHarringtonSep 27, 2013

I'm now intensely curious about what passes for manly thanks. Can't you gentlemen just give each other big cyber hugs? *grins*

It sounds like there's another article in your Reddit wanderings. A nice companion piece to Paul's writing!

Each time your article is opened up, or refreshed, it registers another impression. Your unique users tell you how many of those are by different people.

FargySep 27, 2013

And in case you wander past again, I've no idea what Impressions means on Wizzley.
And it's time for me to head to bed. Golf in a few hours and this old bean ain't what he used to be being.
I do appreciate your help and given the chance would give you a thankful hug. Been terrific.
Night, night.

FargySep 27, 2013

I've followed Simon and sent him a manly thank you note.
And had some more chats with Reddit moderators. They are quite okay. I was wondering why a link didn't work so I did the sensible thing and kept trying, which made matters worse. :)

JoHarringtonSep 27, 2013

You'll want to blow kisses for Pixabay in the direction of Simon: http://wizzley.com/authors/Simon/ (Or whatever it is that blokes do!) Simon is in charge of Tech at Wizzley, and he owns Pixabay too. :D

Let me know if you want me to check if your Reddit posts are public.

You're not distracting me at all. I've only just come in from the shop! :D

FargySep 27, 2013

Well I think I've got all new pics on the articles so far, Pixabay is really good.
I may try a short article in r/games and see what happens, just a text one to see if I'm fine.
:) Hope I don't step on any more toes.
And then I'll try the article addons.
Or I may do it the other way around.
Hope I'm not distracting you overly much.

JoHarringtonSep 27, 2013

Don't open the text module. Go into edit mode on your page, then look at the top of each module. You get arrows, including one which looks like this <--> That will move the whole module into full or half mode.

If you go into the YouTube video or image modules though, you do have pull down menus, which expand or retract them.

No stress! This is fun. :D

FargySep 27, 2013

It's worked out ok, I dragged the handles over to the right and down a bit, for some reason the left side of the pic stuck to the left no matter what, but it looks better now.

FargySep 27, 2013

Thank you. This is fun, and sorta stressful too.
I really have no idea what I'm doing on Reddit, but it'll slowly soak in.
I'm trying to centre that pic in a txt module but I can't find a drop down menu you mentioned to select full page.

JoHarringtonSep 27, 2013

Those are some really decent stats! Go you! And well done side-stepping the ghost banning on Reddit. :)

FargySep 27, 2013

Ah read Paul's article, much helpfulness.
I fiddled around with Reddit and got Automoderated because I exceeded some unknown parameters, thankfully a moderator has tidied the mess up a bit.
Not sure what happened there. But they seem a nice mob.
Here are my stats so far...
9 Pages - 3104 Impressions - 2202 Unique visitors - 2202 Visitors/7d - 2202 Visitors/30d - 2202 Visitors/90d
Which I think is marvellous, and due to my Reddit posts that had the wizzley link. And then lead to my Automoderation. :)
I think I'll try one link per week. See how that goes, then try two. But there is no rush.

JoHarringtonSep 27, 2013

Reddit, at its best, is an amazing touchstone of all that new and delightful about the internet. At its worst, it's 4Chan grown up a little bit.

Paul (another ex-RS player!) has some tips here: http://wizzley.com/reddit-tips-and-tricks-for-wizzley-writers/

FargySep 27, 2013

Aha thank you. :) Was having a chat to some Reddit mods about their system. I sorta undecided about Reddit, it seems good for conversations of less than 24 hour duration.
Not too sure on the voting thing, the r/runescape mob love downvoting me. *shrug*
Thanks for the Pixabay tips!
I will go try realign this picture. *gets crowbar out*

JoHarringtonSep 27, 2013

That's only the top row. That's how Pixabay makes its money. If you go for a top row, posh picture, then you have to pay for it. If you go for any of the lower rows, then the images are free.

To be honest, I've never had a problem getting a top quality free picture from the bottom rows. ;)

If you want a picture in the centre, then use the image module. You can faff with the HTML in a text module, but presumably you don't want text around it. Hence it's easier just to go with an image module. Remember to choose 'full page' in the pull-down menu. It automatically centres it.

Article list: Just add the article module, then copy in your URLs. :D

FargySep 27, 2013

Pixabay seems to have Shutterstock stamped on their pictures.

FargySep 27, 2013

Aha! Thanks! Was looking for a pic place. How do I move a pic from the left side to the centre? Do I manually move it? There is one that I want to move in the Anger article. Southeaster asked for a contents module so I added them today. And I need some advice on an article list to keep people clicking onwards if they want.
Whew.
I shall have to wander the beach of Pixa Bay.

JoHarringtonSep 27, 2013

You're very welcome.

As for timing, in November 2012, I wrote 56 Wizzley articles in a single month. You have that to beat. *smirk* I'd get some variation in your images though. As pretty as your fizzog is, this is the Age of Pinterest. Pictures ftw!

Pixabay have some royalty-free images to plunder: http://pixabay.com/

FargySep 27, 2013

You must write one now. :) Mine is out there, no peeking!
I've got the Fargrist website name, may get around to writing a site up, been years since I did one, and I feel very reluctant to. And then there is the whole web host thing.
I'd love to make some pocket money from Wizzley. But it's not urgent. I want to get to a reasonable product line, say 50 or so articles, and then maybe assess my strategy.
I like a sparse advertising look that has a clear connection to the discussion.
I'm not sure if Google Ad sense will do that, and the mouseover thing I still remember.
Decisions, decisions. I'm at 10 articles, so maybe in two months or so I'll have 50 and can restructure then.
Some of this is frustrating, the Amazon signup was. -.- But at the same time it is fun.
Thanks for all the help.

JoHarringtonSep 27, 2013

There's a huge amount of extra faffing in this game. LOL

I'm intrigued by the 'Angry Gamer' article now!

Yes, Chitika does the mouseover things, but you can opt whether to switch that on or off. Personally, I made more money when it was off!

FargySep 26, 2013

Hmm. I'm struggling along, not sure if I'll make a Fargrist site specially, it looks like too much extra faffing.
I enjoy writing more than the admin.
Oh, and after talking in the other post I wrote an "Angry Gamer" article. Don't look at it!

I'd love to see your perspective on such a topic, if you write one, and I don't want our streams of consciousness to cross beforehand.

Thanks for the links, I've yet to go to chitika, but simpler does sound tempting. Was Chitika that thing that gave mouseover links in the texts?

JoHarringtonSep 25, 2013

Oh dear. :)

I don't know if Google will allow you to have Adsense on Wizzley alone. You may need your own website for that. But give it a go. If not, then your option is Chitika. http://wizzley.com/make-money-chitika-wizzley/

Enjoy your ice cream. I'll read your Wizzography when I've finished my latest article.

FargySep 25, 2013

:) Got to the point where you get a pin and they auto-ring you, except they had trouble ringing our numbers so need to wait an hour to try again. I sent them an email, got heaps of time so it's no worry. Then I'll try Google Ad thingy.

Wrote a Wizzography, and I'll try some fiction in a bit, but I hear some ice cream seductively calling my name right now.

Thanks again.

JoHarringtonSep 25, 2013

You're welcome. :)

FargySep 25, 2013

*grabs addy and runs off down street forgetting to say thanks*

JoHarringtonSep 25, 2013

Use this: http://wizzley.com/authors/Fargy/

FargySep 25, 2013

*knock knock*
*peers in window*
*leaves note asking if we need a website the Amazon signup seems to ask for a specific website that one owns*

JoHarringtonSep 25, 2013

It's all in the heart, cariad.

FargySep 24, 2013

Elementary my dear Gwyar.
Which reminds me of that lovely word, cariad.
Which reminds me of gym.
Monday nights is cardio.
I call it cardiac.

JoHarringtonSep 24, 2013

I should have worked that one out for myself!

FargySep 24, 2013

Fargrist is my Reddit name.

JoHarringtonSep 24, 2013

I'm glad that you're finding my book useful. I was happy to provide a version in pdf. :)

A Wizzography is whatever you want it to be. It's 'no follow' in Google, hence it's the place where everyone spams their links! But it tends to be used as a biography or an extended introduction too. Treat it as somewhere people can come to see who you are.

I'm looking forward to reading your articles. Fiction doesn't go down so well at Wizzley. It's not really the platform for it.

What's your Reddit name?

Yes, I'm no great fan of the Don't Be Evil corporation for many reasons. But I like your 'life is but a game' outlook!

FargySep 24, 2013

Thanks for your A_Writers_Guide_to_Wizzley_Jo_Harrington.pdf
Though I'm unsure if a Wizzography is a bibliography or a biography.
I think I've completed the profile on Wizzley. Unsure there too.

This first article I'll keep tinkering with for the fun of it. Then I'll think up four more topics.

Wizzography might be one, I'm thinking an ongoing fictional tale.

How to deal with Redditors that continually comment to you in the hope that you reply so they can downvote you some more might be another. :) Nah, Reddit's not that interesting really, but I'm sure I can find three other topics just on gaming.

Was interesting to read about your tribulations with the Don't Be Evil corporation. Here in Australia they earned a couple of billion last year and paid $74,000 in tax, basically not even enough to pay for the Tax Office to monitor them, let alone for roads and other utilities they use in Australia.

To me this is another game, where what is allowed by the rules is all fair. Even when the rule-maker and referee plays the game. *somewhere in the bowels of Google a siren begins to sound*

*goes on extended rant about how laws are rules of a game and how we must continually strive to create a fairer game, until Google police, the dreaded Googlice, arrive and storm his soapbox*

JoHarringtonSep 24, 2013

I've just been told that I'm lovely by the Double Rainbow man, now this. Highly successful evening. Congratulations! You have just advanced a Magic Happens level! You have now reached level...

FargySep 23, 2013

:)

Here is a poem encapsulating in a musical sphere one of my cerebral vectors on magical worlds...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRqs1L-Lj5M

JoHarringtonSep 23, 2013

Nice one! I'm glad to hear it. I also Tweeted it etc., so hopefully you'll get some longer term attention from those.

Those are great first day stats!

FargySep 23, 2013

Statistics are 476 impressions, 256 visitors. Mostly from Reddit. r/runescape is the only Reddit I posted the link at. r/2007scape doesn't allow external links without approval, trying to get that whitelisting now.

The results are quite good I think. I have a few Redditors that automatically downvote me when they see posts of mine, so the post won't be visible unless you change settings to see all posts no matter what votes.

The article got a couple of upvotes and about 7 downvotes which is enough to effectively hide it. Given that I have these fans, I am well pleased with the turnout. Reddit seems to have an attention span of a day at most, but it seems worth a try for articles you may write. Although individual reddits may have different rules on advertising and so on.

Thanks for all your support.

JoHarringtonSep 23, 2013

Yes! That looks to be in the right place now. Good luck with it! And no, I didn't fall asleep reading. I giggled and was intrigued and learned a lot, all in turn.

FargySep 23, 2013

I think I've moved it to the right place, I fiddled around with Basic Data and have a sidebar with your topics too now.

It's OK if you fell asleep reading. :P

JoHarringtonSep 23, 2013

Awww! I'm sorry to hear that your first article got deleted. There would have been a reason in the message accompanying it. It's all about quality management here, as so many people are trying to earn a livelihood.

Fiction is discouraged on Wizzley, though I don't think it's actually banned. You can run with humour though! Like this: http://wizzley.com/how-to-cook-a-dragon/ Risk management and dragons sounds about perfect.

Sorry, I was halfway through reading your article yesterday, when I got called away. It was brilliant thus far though! I can see why you put it into MMO, but if you relocate it into Runescape, you may get more passing traffic. It's relevant for both.

FargySep 22, 2013

I'm curious about how it all works. I wrote something right in the beginning and someone deleted it for reasons I've forgotten. Which made me stop writing here. I'm still half expecting what I wrote this time to disappear. In the meanwhile I've been toying with different settings on the page.

As to standard of my article this time, it's my usual half arsed job. I am an incredibly lazy person, I've taken slothing out on the lounge from mere reality unto a callipygian and surreal art form. People would pay to see.

That's not just the usual author's internal criticism. :)

But the main thing is I got some ideas down on paper, the easier ones anyhow.

I was thinking about writing about risk management next. I like chaotic things like safety and dragons.

By the way, can you write fiction here on Wizzley? Oh, and how does copyright work?

JoHarringtonSep 22, 2013

Woot! Go you! I'll go and read that forthwith.

If you're looking to monetize your articles on Wizzley, then yes, you will need to sign up with all of the affiliates. But I'd get a handful of articles under your belt first. That way the likes of Amazon will know who they're taking on.

FargySep 22, 2013

Woops. :) I leapt over the ramparts and heedlessly waded in. Thanks!

http://wizzley.com/no-mmo-is-an-island/

I need to sort out registration with various groups like Amazon? No idea on that, as I've only written this piece.

JoHarringtonSep 21, 2013

Sorry, cariad, I've only just seen this. I don't mind you e-mailing it to me, if you'd prefer someone to read through before it goes live.

FargySep 21, 2013

I wrote a draft piece, what's the best way to get a second opinion? It needs another hour or so to tidy up, and I'd would like some fresh eyes and ideas before I attempt to give it a sheen.

JoHarringtonSep 21, 2013

Naturally I'm going to say post it at Wizzley. It will nestle alongside my articles, which will provide some historical context, so you don't have to write about it.

Yes, I'd heard about Josh Pillault. These are strange times.

FargySep 21, 2013

Did I tell you about Josh Pillault?
http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/02/second-teen-spends-months-in-jail-for-video-game-threat/

Another player from League of Legends had the same thing happen, apparently his $500,000 bail was paid anonymously though. Maybe Riot games paid.

Far as I know Josh is still imprisoned and pining for some RS perhaps.

I've been thinking on being a little more forthcoming on how I think RS could find reverse gear. At this stage going forward means 300 days or so then kaput. The trends are unpromising.

Which is fine because that means fewer Squeal players and my sole aim is to kill Squeal.

However you have been magnificent and I want to emulate your generosity of spirit, it takes a certain coldness to do what I've been doing, and my monomania is against such a kindness, but I think it would do me good, however much I resent Jagex for their treatment of Jacqui.

Where would you like me to post such an article?

JoHarringtonSep 14, 2013

How would it be warranted and guaranteed? Retrospectively, my dear! And you don't want to believe everything that dragons tell you.

Awww! Beautiful bardic rhymes
Wash away the sadness with the times!

FargySep 14, 2013

Time machines? Stuff of nonsenseness! Well, a dragon did tell me, that until we start thinking about the speed of gravity, we won't be putting Newton's apple back together again. But really, time machinery! How would it be warrantied and guaranteed?

Here is another poem for you, made fresh for you this moment...

Everything dies.
Everyone lies,
No reasons why.
Snippets of truth
Like newspaper clippings
A bittersweet symphony
An unbearable lightness of being
I see
Poetry all around.
If sad you see it too.
Be a silly Seuss
And smile because it happened.

JoHarringtonSep 14, 2013

Sort out a time machine? Or poetry is always good. :)

FargySep 14, 2013

Dispiriting? I still bear in mind you mentioned despair earlier. How can I help you with these down in the dumps doldrums descriptors?

JoHarringtonSep 12, 2013

Thanks for keeping us in the loop. I heard some dispiriting rumours last night, which I'm pursuing somehow before I make public. You will be the first to know, when I've verified things.

FargySep 12, 2013

By the way, don't click the bugabuse link in the post below. It's unsafe.

FargySep 12, 2013

Nick Xenophon regained his seat in the Senate last week. There is a new government in the House of Representatives and the Senate looks to be hung, results still coming in. Which means at some point the Liberals will be needing Nick's vote to get stuff done.
Which means he could get them to support his anti-gambling legislation through both Houses.
*fingers crossed*

As of tomorrow Vivathia and Fargrist will have been banned for a year.

I'll celebrate with an email to the Runescape directors about Anniversary Enemies.

The gist of which will be something like this...

Some of the barriers to growth for Runescape are not obvious, for example, current players like fewer players, because it means less competition for resources, few competitors on the high scores. Whereas new players find competing on the high scores disheartening.

Then there are the bugabuse.net type people who caused two events this year.

Then there's people like me. One of my projects is about the closure of the RS forums.

Few reasons for that, Jagex will be thinking about it anyhow with the layoffs this month, the RS forums will never achieve their potential, there is no growth from the forums only cost.

With the forums gone there will be a culture shock. But perhaps just the concept will be enough to get people to start thinking about Runescape from a broader view. Along the lines of, we don't value things until we lose them.

And I sometimes pop in and annoy the Redditors on runescape. Part of my looking around for alternatives to a forum. Hi Rez studios did this a month ago, I doubt Reddit is viable for the purpose.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1jraz0/hirez_is_closing_down_their_official_forum_and/

Take care.

JoHarringtonAug 25, 2013

Southeaster - You just made me laugh aloud in a crowded room. I'm getting funny looks. LOL

JoHarringtonAug 25, 2013

I love how you keep changing e-mail addresses to thwart them. They should be listening to you. Or, at least, they should be listening to their players, or lose them. Then the business goes down and the game, as they say, is lost.

Thanks for the full text of the e-mail from Mark Gerhard. The latter, I've read before. The former was pretty much as I imagined. He must be inundated.

FargyAug 25, 2013

Hi Jakob,
Please don’t take this the wrong way but I have no idea why you were banned or who you are, the player support department deal with all bans. I get thousands of player emails a day requesting everything from items to be restored to their inventory/bank to being unbanned because they were actually hacked and the perpetrator ‘botted’ on their account.
The player support team ban literally millions of players a year for a multitude of offences ranging from cheating, trolling, scamming, botting, offensive behaviour, community safety, gold farming, real world trading, etc, ect.
You are welcome to create a new account/s if you agree to abide by the Jagex T&C’s and intend to be a positive contributor to the community.

I simply can’t read all the emails let alone respond to them however rest assured my assistant does however forward all player ban request to the player support department.

I am however saddened to read that you feel the game is being “policed to death” or that you perceive Jagex as your enemy. I don’t believe that is true and its certainly not our intention but I believe RuneScape’s longstanding success is directly as a result of actively protecting the games integrity and ensuring the community’s safety a philosophy I’m not prepared compromise on.
Equally I’m troubled that you consider SoF ‘gambling’ where in reality it is absolutely no different to the existing drop table mechanic behind killing any monster in RuneScape, I’m conscious a few players have called the creative implementation into question and I suppose it’s not a helpful comparison when other companies do indeed use a similar spinning wheel device for what is very clearly a real gambling service, the team have a project slated this year to look at changing the implementation.

Thanks,
Mark

FargyAug 25, 2013

We sang, usually like this, "something something something Copperhead Road! Something...", and I found out Torchwood is an anagram of Doctor Who. A good night.

No director of Runescape has responded, apart from Mark Gerhard.

However, I did do a couple of tests, and I'm not blocked by them.

One test involved adding a jagex.com email addy as well, and that site blocked the email addy I used, but the directors didn't.

Another test with a different email addy of mine involved going hard at John Salter, for his clash of interest due to his ties to WoW. I got dirty and I got personal, after which John Salter blocked that email, but the others didn't. I went back to another email and kept talking. At this stage nobody has that email blocked.

Perhaps coincidentally my posts have lined up with some changes.

For instance my post suggesting that Jagex ask players which RS version they wanted after EoC launched and the forums erupted.

That email hit Jagex directors 3 hours before Jagex decided to ask players about rebooting an older server version. Possibly coincidental. But just my sending the emails changes things, I'm fairly simplistic that way, ask and ye shall be given.

From memory I gave you part of Mark Gerhard's email to me, may as well have the whole.

I'll add it to next post...

JoHarringtonAug 25, 2013

CarlosR - I was way too unduly amused too. Unfortunately I haven't any of the passwords to my social networking here to share it. I did attempt to engage my non-runescape playing friends here though.

JoHarringtonAug 25, 2013

Fargy - It's always good to have time out and party. I've been partaking a little myself, and spent last night on a settee.

Tim Armstrong seems like an idiot.

Do the directors of Jagex ever write back? Thank you for writing to them.

FargyAug 24, 2013

RAWR!! :) It's a fake roar, spent the night at a 55th birthday, slept on lounge, so feeling a bit raw, not roarish. Heading off to working bee in a bit, get to cut lawns and other relaxations. I think I will be squinting a lot today.

I email the Runescape directors every so often, Mitchell left last month and was replaced by Farrell, so they get some turnover too.

When speaking to directors I keep messages short. Which is something I have to work at because one word connects to another and I want to say them all.

Last week's email was Trimester Septimation. This week will be New York State of Mind. A quick exploration of the reason why people play games and MMOs in particular, and why the thinking that proves efficient in New York business isn't good for MMOs, because the variety of players and their freedom, differentiates them from enclosed environments like the business that operates them.

Here is an example of what doesn't work for MMOs...

http://www.news.com.au/technology/biztech/ceo-of-aol-tim-armstrong-taped-firing-employee-for-snapping-his-photo/story-fn5lic6c-1226695231072

Yet this is what Jagex does.

Still searching for the small words. Fun increases funds?

JoHarringtonAug 24, 2013

Karl Marx would have said that playing Runescape all day was the decadence of the petit bourgeoisie. (And Groucho Marx would have said, "I wouldn't want to subscribe to any game that would allow me to subscribe.")

JoHarringtonAug 24, 2013

I feel slightly guilty about how much I enjoyed reading that IAMA. I wonder what happened there. Did someone go and bang on his front door? Or did Reddit get a call?

Mark Ogilvie is like Teflon, he'll be there forever. And Mark Gerhard is the consummate politician. They'll get rid of all the little people first. Says I, stating the bloody obvious. They'll get rid of customer support. If there's no-one there to hear the complaints, then there will be no complaints.

Plus loads of promotions. So many promotions that you can hardly play for wading through them. And nice things to buy.

FargyAug 24, 2013

Forgot to mention Mod Bro left Jagex in May.
I'm gonna call it; I reckon Mark Gerhard or Mark Ogilvie will be gone by year's end.

Jagex must be of the school of thought that customers are a nuisance and that a perfect business has no customers. This thinking is already paying off, last month they sacked 23 employees: considerable savings gained already. :P

FargyAug 24, 2013

Mod Bro attempted an AMAA on Reddit. Sadly it got locked partway through and his account deleted.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1kz7aw/mod_bro_exemployee_at_jagex_runescape_ama_d/

I was going to ask how often players got banned for disagreeing with Jagex, but he got banned before I got home from golf.

AMAA is Ask Me Almost Anything. He said some stuff of interest, but most telling was how the AMAA was interfered with. Jagex and its defenders continue to kill discussion and Runescape.

Been thinking about googling Google or similar and seeing what fingers they have in the gaming pie, because I believe that MMOs haven't been fully explored. At all.

The ruination of Runescape must be intentional.

JoHarringtonAug 23, 2013

I shall bear that in mind, should I ever face him in the dock. LOL

I've spent the afternoon writing articles. Not exactly the shock result there, given that's what I do every day!

I though you meant that this was Vivathia singing! I was going to compliment her on her voice. Awww! You pair are so romantic.

I feel like I should reply with music too. This has no greater meaning in context than it was what I was listening to, when I paused to hark your videos. Have a bit of Blue October: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weylpj-GCFs

FargyAug 23, 2013

He's a shark with a serious demeanor and a smile. Don't take either seriously. I told you I was able to help him with his book this year, so proud of him. He's even more persistent than I am.

Spent the afternoon showing some schoolkids how to play lawn bowls, it was so much fun. They bounce around like rubber balls.

Listening to some music now with Vivathia. This is her song...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_1aF54DO60

I reply with...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj4q4rfDcNw

Which brings us back to fear, both songs deal with it. Uncertainty when faced with the future.

JoHarringtonAug 23, 2013

*makes a note of your brother's legal prowess, in case I'm ever in need of a good lawyer!*

I remember the Poll Tax riots well, though I was just a tad too young to be allowed to go.

I do have to keep my Palantiri hidden and safe, as I live in Mordor. No, honestly I do. Apparently my 'hood, when viewed from a distance during the Industrial early 20th century, is what inspired Tolkien in his descriptions. One does not simply walk in Mordor around here. We're born and raised there. Hardcore.

*reads the news report about Jagex lay-offs* Oh no! It's Player Support being targeted this time! Those are the people whom I met, when I visited. They do an amazing job and have nothing whatsoever to do with SoF. It's sad to know that anyone is being made redundant in this economical climate, but this is bad on far more levels.

Player Support are the people who keep our player base safe, and able to log in etc. They're the hidden ones, who are nevertheless vital. *sigh* Apparently not vital enough.

Fear is a good emotion. It makes you alert and ready to survive the immediate danger. Panic is not. By its very nature, it's chaotic. Good for stirring stagnant pots, but combustible in one that's already overheating. Noobs.

FargyAug 23, 2013

In a sense we need fear too. Otherwise bungee jumping wouldn't exist. Or like my little brother said, he went to Sydney to be up against the best lawyers, to challenge his fear.

And he ate them alive. :) He grew from the experience.

The Gunpowder Plot sounds like the frustrations unleashed by the Poll Tax, a tax on people for being poor. I hated that monstrosity.

Nowadays there are more powerful weapons than gunpowder though. There are mystical Palantiri through which smoky whispers of sussurating sibilance can find their targets.

I have one, and I suspect you do too. But I sometimes fall and transform into Grima, whereas you follow a better way. I wish I had your flair (and hair).

Hmm. Dark news from the crystal...

http://www.develop-online.net/news/45154/Jagex-set-for-new-round-of-layoffs

So far Jagex has laid off 23 in the last month. With more in 30 days I suppose.

Mark Gerhard was meant to be back from holidays on the the 23rd August. So maybe Monday we will hear more.

I sent an email to Runescape directors today, Trimester Septimation, the title. Asking why they wanted to lose 100k subs in the last three months. And what they plan to do about the decrease in interest in SoF buyables.

It's why they are sacking people.

It seems even corporate suits feel emotions like fear, but some react badly.

JoHarringtonAug 23, 2013

I love that 9Gag updated Maslow! Brilliant!

I think it was Goebbels who said that, if people fear, they can be persuaded to do and accept anything. He was probably not the first person in history to reach that conclusion - it's as old as humanity - but he perfectly articulated it. It's the best way to control masses of people.

Fortunately for all of us, Jagex cannot resort to frightening us. They can frustrate, bombard, indoctrinate, reason and lie to us, but that most effective persuasion would merely chase players away. Thank Guthix for small mercies.

And ah, Guthix....

One of the most dangerous things in the world - a perfect storm of a mistake - is to give something, then to take it away. The Gunpowder Plot, in Britain, happened not because of two generations of Catholic repression, but because King James gave the Catholics hope in the run up to his coronation. Then did a U-turn once he was on the throne.

Those who'd meekly bowed under every piled degradation, and accepted ever increasing limitations upon their lives, suddenly snapped. Suddenly it was unbearable. They'd rather die than submit to all that they'd born all their lives.

The example might be a little overblown in the comparison, but it's the same psychological triggers which I think Jagex pinged.

Once upon a time, there was a game wherein the inequities of real life didn't matter. You could reap what you sowed, regardless of worldly matters. The playing field was level. It allowed an escape from a physical life, where too much else was factored in - where the conditions into which you were born dictated all that could happen and the opportunities open to you.

In Gielinor, we all entered through Tutorial Island. Our destiny was our own. Nothing else had any bearing on the game.

Then it was taken away. Now logging on drags inside the notion that the rich kids get richer, and their passage through the grind is bought and paid for in advance. Where does that differ from reality? The real world invaded my Runescape and that's what hurt so badly.

Fortunately not enough for me to invest in 36 barrels of gunpowder!

FargyAug 22, 2013

I agree. In a world of imagination Jagex tries to hold onto every balloon and nail it down.
It's human. We have needs, the most basic being internet access, but safety and security rank at a very basic level, let's return to Abraham Maslow's diagram...
http://9gag.com/gag/7028914

People will go to great lengths for safety; Great Wall of China, Hadrian's Wall, Maginot Line.

And by setting up rules that hold everybody in the grasp of the lowest imagination.

Fear sells. Which in our context we can use I suppose. With having lost 100k paying accounts in the last 3 months I'd imagine the Runescape directors are feeling a little trepidation. Not that they would ever show that, it's against the rules. And it's also why they make complaining about the loss of players against the rules; hiding all discussion behind a wall of compliant Fmods, who as Mod Crow stated, Jagex "implicitly trust".

But that only works in the part of the internet they control, which is pretty small. As if they could wall up their fiefdom from all reality.

This is one of the reasons why I love MMOs; there is no need to nail things down.

It's like bungee jumping without needing safety harnesses. We can satisfy our needs for confronting fears and exploring and growing; without too much real risk.

If players wanted a world of petty rule, they could log in to reality. And I suspect that's what's been happening as the player numbers drop.

JoHarringtonAug 22, 2013

I was describing Runescape and Jagex to my non-gamer friend last night. I ended up telling him that it's like a little nation state in miniature.

Unfortunately history tells us that all governments would love a totalitarian state. It makes the populace so much easier to control. Jagex get this with no real expectation of having to allow something more democratic. They're a business at the end of the day.

However, this is a totalitarian state with voters. The subscribers can simply up stakes and relocate to the 'nation' of League of Legends or WoW. The one thing which would signal success for a dictatorship is the one thing which Jagex can never have - high walls to keep the people inside.

Which means that they do have to reach for something approximating democracy after all.

FargyAug 22, 2013

Good morning! :D

Botwatch. Hmm. I think it's been banning innocent players. No system is perfect, so to ban tens of thousands of accounts it has to have been banning players that were mucking around with TOR or VPNs or any other number of things.

That's just something we know with age, but to a young botwatchmaker it may seem an impossibility that he is wrong. I'd say most, if not all the watchmakers, are young invulnerable males.

Even at rates of 1 in a 1000 that's a lot of players getting kicked to the kerb. And the graphs don't discount that possibility. The bots come back very quickly, but always a bit less than the total prior to the bot ban, in that gap are the innocent players.

This is one part of it. How Jagex talks is another part. Let's hop over to LinkedIn, they've introduced a new thing called SWAM, Site Wide Auto Moderation. Basically moderators can ban LinkedIn users from all groups.

Moderators are loving it, they are taking out all their competitors including other moderators. This will rip LinkedIn to bits, but LinkedIn is deleting criticism of SWAM.

Basically this is how Jagex deals with criticism. LinkedIn better wise up or the same thing that's happening to Runescape will happen to them.

There is a lot that happens when people get together.

If they get together with Jagex it involves a lot of banning.

Although Mod Crow reckons;

"We only ban people who post negative feedback in a disrespectful and rude manner."

Which means he thinks Vivathia and I are disrespectful and rude.

Which is quite rude of him. :)

You can read more on Crow's thoughts here...

235-236-875-65115872
post by Victor Marte
Runefest Forum
"Ask My Questions At RunefestV2"

Bottom line is that is very difficult to drag people to the negotiating table sometimes. These PR people live in worlds of fantasy and disengagement where things are perfect.

It takes a cold bucket of real magic to wake them up.

Mod Ash is much better at this sort of stuff. Mod Peter was pretty good too. One could feel it from the words they typed. Mod MMG on the other hand.

One can understand reticence when it comes to Jagex talking publicly. Commercially sensitive information and all that palaver. But talking publicly is the way forward for Runescape.

JoHarringtonAug 21, 2013

So basically the bot bans are more a war of attrition, than an all out offensive. If it's eroding away at the mire, then that's all to the good. Give it a decade or so and we might be bot free!

Beautiful synchronicity in your 'magic happens' comment. Halfway across the world from you, my friend and I were having a discussion around the time that you were commenting here. (I didn't see it. My notebook was on the other side of the room.) We were talking about how most of a conversation is non-verbal, or in tone, or in expectations, etiquette, social rules and all those other things which wouldn't be apparent in a transcript. Magic does indeed happen.

We need our idealists, our dreamers and those with the vision and stamina to make frequent forays over the top. At the very least, they are an example to others. At the most, they are an inspiration and the catalyst of a revolution. Perhaps slightly hyperbolic for these circumstances, but only slightly.

Thank you for being our Padraig Pearse. I'll do my best to be Aneirin.

I know absolutely nothing about Divination. At least in a Runescape context! So it's a slow grinder, but you can attempt to speed things up with a bit of a gamble on the old Squeal of Fortune. Remind me again why I'm not despairing?

*reads the linked article* I hadn't considered the psychological angle, that paying money out kind of elevates the expectations in a game. Players start wanting IRL rewards, if they're forking out IRL cash. It will be interesting to see how that develops, though the research is always going to trail behind the actuality. The former relies upon data from the latter.

Whether the playground or the UN, communication is always key. By ignoring your player-base and stifling dialogue, then you miss all opportunities to foster loyalty. Discussion engages people. Silence disengages them. If you're seeking to monetize these individuals, then the last thing you want is them being disengaged.

You know the right thing to say to us ladies. LOL

FargyAug 21, 2013

The bot bans see a drop and recover in a very short time, but never as high as the player count before the bot ban. It's interesting. Not sure what it means, I'd have to see real figures to give a better idea but generally it's looking pretty dire.

Magic exists, it's what exists between people. Every time I laugh I know it exists, so don't put your wand away just yet.

My role in this play is to be Quixotic, to make the ammunition run dry with relentless charges from the trenches. From experience this can take a year or two. Then we can sit down and have a chat about possible futures. For now it means I'm fairly negative.

For example, Divination has a slow training rate, to make Squeal the fastest way for max capers to buy their capes back.

That's my cold eye.

I have offered the Runescape directors a summary of potential futures for Runescape, but I really wouldn't trust them to do it properly. I did give a list of requirements though.

There has to be a real dedication to discussing options, and that won't happen until the playerbase goes down a bit more and Squeal payments start drying up, either from player fatigue, as in...

http://www.osga.com/artman/publish/article_10693.shtml

Or things like Squeal becoming illegal.

The reason the dialogue has to start is that the key does lie in the players. I talk about Runescape all the time, not often to RS players though. Basically I dial someone up and ask them to try Squeal of Fortune out and see what they think. I don't have to rant about it, but it is fairly negative.

Basically I've said nothing positive and forward thinking because Jagex doesn't talk. So we are left to complain to emptiness and walk away to our various devious plots.

18 is roughly where I'm at in my head, it's the age I left home. And that change seems to have led to no change. :D

All you need is a broomstick and a black pointy hat. Perhaps a cauldron to cackle at?

Witches are everywoman, and ageless.

JoHarringtonAug 21, 2013

So, in a nutshell, Jagex are steadily losing genuine players, while losing the war on bots. Or have I misunderstood that? I am genuinely saddened, but not surprised. I wish I could wave a magic wand and put it all back to how it was, when it was home.

And I wish you'd write an article here, under the heading, 'If I Owned Runescape...' If you were suddenly given carte blanche to make your changes, and the workforce to enact them, how you'd guide our game back to safety. I'm asking mainly because I despair. I can't see how it could be brought back now. Is that my pessimistic side showing?

Yes, I know Southeaster, as he's right here on Wizzley. But the other two only by repute. That's a tremendous bit of detective work and mathematics that they've done for us.

Erk! You're not that much older than me, and you're a grandfather! I'm still about 18 in my head! Well, perhaps not 18... 30... 35 tops. Oh! I give up there too. *grows up* :D I've skipped the having kids bit, but I have two strapping nephews. I'm in severe danger of becoming a great-auntie within a decade or two.

Didn't great-aunties used to be old? >.>

FargyAug 21, 2013

The derivatives are rates of change, so we see the subscribers dive down overall, and then we see the spikes of rate of change in the derivatives. Combining those two down the bottom you can see the big spikes are probably bot bans, where numbers dive rapidly and then climb rapidly as bot makers restart accounts at 10k an hour or whatever it is.

You can see three big spikes like this.

The overall trend for this three months looks like a slow decline, but it's 100k lost over 3 months. A seventh lost. Charts over greater periods of time would show spikes down after EoC for example but no rebound. Each bot bust returns player totals to a lower level, that's expected. Some bot users give up, but I'd say a few innocent players are getting banned too. Has been an unusual amount of forum threads on official forums, and elsewhere, that didn't occur during big bot busts in past years.

Mordeth, and Kiwi Cacher are good with figures, from memory they take them at certain times from high scores and players online counts. Kiwi is good enough to automate this process. Hmm. Southeaster should be up to speed as well. I don't know any of these people but you may.

I remember talking to kids who had Runescape as a safe place. Where nights out after school were too dangerous; the back streets of Chicago, London and Washinton.

This is just one part of a possible future for Runescape, a place where people can be safe, can learn, can explore. There is so much more that it could be. And instead Jagex turned it a gambling craphole.

The figures that Mordeth has, show that Mark Gerhard and Mark Ogilvie have tenuous positions, and if I was Og I wouldn't have gone on holidays.

School starts in the US in a couple of weeks and about half of RS players are from the US. So we can expect another seasonal slide soon, I'm unsure about the Divination factor but at this stage the new skill won't bring players back.

I'm 50 :) Finished my first half century this year. And made Gramps status!! *struts* I started all the Gramps things, golf and lawn bowls and a bit of community work.

To Jagex I'm a loud mouthed slanderer of their good name. Able to be banned with impunity.

*is too lazy to climb on soapbox to rant about Jagex*

Maybe we can find Runescape another, inconclusive, but happier ending.

JoHarringtonAug 21, 2013

Congratulations! Please pass on the same to the rest of your family. Ruby is a gorgeous name.

Though how on Earth are you old enough to be a grandpa? They were always much older than your photograph appears in my day. Mind you, old is increasingly getting young, as I go on. The police officers are starting to look embryonic....

Back to Runescape, I do love how players persist in making their views known about SoF. It just shows how much was invested in this game from a player base POV, that we do all keep harping on about it over a year after the fact. If it was a throwaway game, then we'd have all walked away without looking back in April 2012. But so much of our lives were enriched there.

This last weekend, I had a meet up with several friends, who travelled from all over the country. We camped out over a weekend and really enjoyed ourselves. We all met in Runescape, though none of us are still playing. Real life relationships were formed in those pixel streets, as you well know.

And Jagex wonder why we don't just shut up and go away.

You're not alone, Fargy, and you've never been boring at the party. :)

Mordeth's charts are quite eye-opening (and a little saddening, says the veteran RS player). Do you know where he's getting his figures from? And what is meant by 1st and 2nd derivatives? Thanks for showing us.

FargyAug 21, 2013

What a year. I'm a grandpa now. :D A beautiful Ruby in the shape of a girl. Ruby was always a name of my daughter's dolls and online characters. She is sweeter than her name. I'm doting in my dotage.

These are some of the reasons I'm cold eyed with Squeal.
Here is some news from 24th July 2013...Phil Mansell, RS Executive Producer, Ask Me Almost Anything on Reddit,

"We’re intending to keep the SOF doing broadly the same things that it does now, we have no plans for either an expansion or reduction in how it works."

Was in response to this question from /u/Jeraal_Mordeth, or Mordeth on the game...

" Is it at all possible that you'll remove the ability to obtain exp and RSGP from the Squeal of Fortune, or even remove the Squeal of Fortune entirely and focus on Solomon's General Store to bring in Micro-payment revenue?

That's honestly the only thing keeping me from coming back to the game for RuneScape 3 (I'd explain my reasoning in detail, but that would take up way too much space and could spark an off-topic debate).

I know this is a highly sensitive topic, but I am sincerely asking you for a direct, serious, and comprehensive answer; as what will most likely be my final request as a RuneScape player of more than eight years, *please do not evade or ignore this question.*"

~~~

Understandably some players in the thread discussing this were a little disappointed.
312-313-666-65076570 RS forums, SoF sub forum.

Naturally I've no plans to stop, my monomania keeps things simple. The Aussie election wraps up on Sept 7th, and Nick Xenophon should remain a Senator. And then we can get this warmachine rolling toward SoF again.

I apologise for my constancy, it can put people off, the whole keyboard warrior cliche etc. plus it makes me boring at parties.

Perhaps I should learn some magic tricks. Although I suspect Jagex would prefer I was a mime. :D

P.S. Mordeth has done some number crunching, enclosed for the fun of it...

http://i.imgur.com/ow936Zb.jpg

FargyAug 11, 2013

The two dimensional black and blanc aspect of Runescape discussion might have a few factors. Broken expectations, the false intimacy of the internet, the age groups and genders of the discussion group, the focus on winning over alternatives, and on it rolls.

For me disappointment is strong. Runescape has a lot of promise, but its main strength, being a world of imagination, is being narrowed into being a monster bashing game, Whack a Mole of Diminishing Returns. It's losing the worlds of conversation, the forums are an aspect of that, where people leave the forums so they can talk about Runescape without interference. And where divergent opinions are told to adapt and quit. It's written adapt or quit, but pronounced "and".

Other aspects of the formerly huge social engine of Runescape remain unexplored. That's disappointing too.

Can it improve? Yep. But that conversation hasn't even started yet. To traction change would probably take 3 months, a couple of interns, a sticky forum thread and a budget not exceeding $100k.

We're watching Bridesmaids, unexpected goodness, while writing this, and one line rang an associative bell, "there is much more sense of community in coach". I wonder if that's the freeplay of RS. Community or social network or whatever it's called, is what this near future hinges on. And the people in first class talk about community without a clue.

Thanks for sharing a dime of time,

Fargrist and Vivathia

JoHarringtonAug 10, 2013

Fargy - I quite like this appraisal: 'Jagex asked for Runescape to die by not asking players how RS could live.'

The thing is that dissenting RS players are seen as the enemy. We're not. Most of us love the game. We put many, many years of our lives into the game. Then became disillusioned, as money men came in from above and just destroyed all that we'd known and loved. Does that make us Luddites?

JoHarringtonAug 10, 2013

Southeaster - I think it's a mixture of all of the above. SoF is certainly what killed the game for me.

FargyAug 10, 2013

SoF, EoC, NIS, Solo dung being crap, and so on all have the same cause.

How Jagex talks.

SoF stands out because of moral issues. But essentially Jagex asked for Runescape to die by not asking players how RS could live. Having Twitter and the other rubbish isn't talking.

I'm just an accelerant for the inevitable. You totally misunderstand me if you think I support a diminishing player base. But that's okay, I'm misunderstood a fair bit in the first few meetings.

Jagex wanted a diminished player base by banning those who oppose their vision. And since it's always the case that people will at some point disagree, eventually Jagex would have banned all but the most blindly supportive. Ergo Jagex wants fewer players, or at least that's how their systems are set up.

Jagex got the fight they wanted. What did they expect from banning us, ignoring us then telling us we could rejoin if we behaved. You don't expect a social network to grow by telling people to shut up. Jagex is bright enough to know that, so they must want players to disappear.

I don't talk about positives or how to get out of this situation, because Jagex doesn't ask.

Jagex is getting what it wants. Not what I want.

FargyAug 9, 2013

Southeaster, No. Runescape and MMOs of all stripes have a huge potential that is unrealised. For an indication of what I mean see Jane McGonigal TED talks.

My aim is to get rid of the Squeal of Fortune gambling. It uses the addictive qualities of Runescape to hook kids into gambling. A diminishing player group ties in with that aim, as less people are exposed to Squeal of Fortune.

Primarily though. Squeal of Fortune is underage gambling and its removal is my aim. SoF also has terminal effects like selling xp and gold, which kill any game, so in a way it will remove itself, eventually.

I've spent years in MMOs, my wife and I met in one, I love them dearly, but gambling no.

Jagex did ban us for what I said about Squeal, which made me angry, and angrier still for getting angry. So I do get acerbic, but I make up by posting updates to the Jagex directors. If I was hunting Runescape I wouldn't do that.

Mark Gerhard has emailed us, but only said he might change the mechanics of SoF later in this year. Mr 90%, I take with a liberal shaking of salt. I can understand Jagex being quiet about SoF, it's on the surface the safest tactic. Yesterdays email to them was about their loss of 1.2 million memberships in 9 months, the trouble with their autobot destroyer, and how Runescape forums work to limit discussion, fine tuning it to what Jagex wants to hear.

During these sorts of changes there has to be a stormtrooper role, an assault soldier that is always out of the trenches first. And who usually gets mown down by enemy fire. Luckily it's virtual fire and I can jump back up again and get back into the fight quicksmart. That may lead to the conclusion that I am against Runescape, because I'm like a zombie, hard to stop.

The SoF is an update that has its root cause in how Jagex talks, so that's on the war table too,

Usually companies ask customers what they want to spend money on. If Jagex ever starts this discussion it will start off with the predictable cosmetic items only, and go on from there.

Hmm. Everything is connected so my discussion tends to follow different threads in the weave. It also doesn't help that everybody lies. But on the upside it makes the game more challenging.

From reading your posts I feel that you do have Runescape at heart. In our different ways I think we all do.

JoHarringtonAug 6, 2013

Sorry Fargy and Southeaster. I'm rushing around like a mad thing this morning. I'll catch up and comment properly this evening. :)

FargyAug 5, 2013

It's my belief that the RS forum management has been the cause of the continual decline of player numbers.
In 2007 Andrew Gower changed one line of code. Players got angry. Jagex forums were built in good times and when players telestormed the forums, Jagex turtled.
Mutes and bans became commonplace.
Forum mods grew extremely rude.
Here is an example from Aja Wyndward...

"Just saying Wasup, Zeus and RWH, you do NOT run this subforum and you will NOT turn it into another HLF. If anyone from HLF tries to get away with the crap in regular forums you got to do in HLF, you will end up with ALL of your forum privileges revoked.

Believe me, the green team would love nothing better than to be able to crack down on some of you HLF trolls/spammers this way."

1st August Quick find code: 55-56-450-65081721

The only Fmods left now are the ones who enjoy policing. Who have no problem with Squeal of Fortune etc., because the policing is their game, not Runescape.

This caused players to leave the forums and form their own islands in the cyber sea. Places like Reddit. Where players could talk without constant nitpicking intervention. Botting forums are friendlier than the RS forums, and Jagex wonders why they have a trouble with bots.

There are other problems with the forums, that contribute, such as no freedom to post links except in High Level Forums, and division of players like the hidden Rants and HLF forums. And especially the hidden Jmods disguised as Fmods, which distorts communication.

I give a thumbs up whenever I see Tufftypower or the other Fmods crushing conversation. I know it drives players away and that ties in with my goal of killing Squeal, or at least having fewer players exposed to it.

The only real player vote on content saw 450,000 paying accounts vote for going back in time five years. To the 2007 servers.

With this mangled way of talking to players, Jagex won't do anything right. It won't work out how to treat the Josh case. I suspect it's too late to turn the ship around, too many angry players, such as myself, I don't like getting banned.

Ironically I'm angry because I love the world of the MMO. RS could have been so much more, and they turned it into a pokie parlour. Damaging as I am there is a calm inevitability to RS's demise. I'm only an accelerant. The real cause is how Jagex talks to players.

JoHarringtonAug 5, 2013

I like how you look on the positive on issues like divide and conquer. Yes, there are undiscovered options, but Jagex run their community like governments would like to run their nations. They have absolute control over those forums. The seeping comes from fan sites and people like us canting here.

But how many more high profile court cases will there be, before there's a parental backlash? Saving a school from a shooter equates great publicity. But sending trolls to prison for a decade absolutely does not.

FargyAug 5, 2013

This escalation of trolling to be worthy of months of jail without trial, that indicates it's a problem organisations like Jagex should be looking at. They will probably look at extra censorship as the answer, but censorship itself has long been one of Jagex's problems.

For example the RS forums and how Jagex have divided and punished the community.

Without much thought to options like rewarding forum users. That sort of obvious oversight means not much thought goes into it, which is a good thing. Means there are plenty of undiscovered options.

There will be more of these trolls who want people to go to jail, and they will be successful.

For League of Legends at least there seems to have been the $500k bail money involved, so I'd say this threat to the social fabric of MMOs will be getting keen oversight.

Hopefully.

JoHarringtonAug 5, 2013

How very strange re Texas. I wonder what legal problems that could have possibly triggered.

Trolls are trolls, in Runescape or wherever they may be found on the internet. The issue is Josh's response, which was irresponsible in the context. But it does sound like something which the average 'shock value' teenager would just say.

It really is a weird one. There is always the chance that he was on the level, but my gut feeling says it was trolling.

I agree that it doesn't feel fair that Josh had the book thrown at him, while the troll appears to have walked away laughing. But what can we do? Start to legislate against that and it opens up a whole can of worms for internet use.

FargyAug 5, 2013

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Game_Client

Search for the term Texas in the above link. This may still be the case or may not.

http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/forums.ws?278,279,294,64307937

Possibly an unintentional bug has allowed client use in Texas.
~~~

The troll is responsible for people going to jail. I doubt this Josh case is the first person he's done it too. The "knock knock" gives it away. The original troll needs tracking down for sure.

Even if the account is banned the troll can redo it five minutes later with another character, this sort of sabotage to Runescape doesn't have any prequisites.

Interesting problem.

JoHarringtonAug 4, 2013

I've just been hunting through and Oxford, Mississippi seems the favourite for Josh Pillault's 'hood.

I didn't know that about Texan restrictions. What are they all about?

And yes, there were two people trolling in that conversation, from what I've heard. If indeed it was trolling. It does seem rather unfair that one got the book thrown at him, and the other carried on regardless. Reminds me of Grace Petrie's 'Tonne of Bricks' tune. http://music.gracepetrie.com/track/tonne-of-bricks

FargyAug 4, 2013

I'm not sure where Josh Pillault is, the articles I saw mentioned Ohio, Texas and Mississippi. Dang traditional media never had an eye for detail.
Texas would be the more severe, they have odd ideas there. For instance Texan players of RS have some restrictions on how they log in to RS. So they disguise their IP as not coming from Texas.
Jagex did the right thing. They don't know their players so have to assume the worst. And then US police would do the same, seeing him in the same light as another 19 year old, that Boston bomber.
But that still leaves the player who goaded Josh. As far as I know that player is still going around doing what he do.
Telling knock knock jokes.

JoHarringtonAug 4, 2013

It sounds likely to me that it was LoL paying that. Unless it was another (very rich) player, who wanted to sound a note of solidarity.

To my mind, this is a really tough call. If Jagex had said nothing, and Josh had shot up his school, then we'd be tearing strips off Jagex now. I think they did the right thing passing it up, because they weren't in a position to do the necessary extra investigation. The Texas police were. Did they over-react? Or was there more to the story which isn't being reported?

Given the climate in America at the moment, the former is very possible.

I'd be interested to hear what Mr Robertson has to say.

FargyAug 4, 2013

I emailed a lawyer about the Josh Pillaut matter. The lawyer is an expat living over in sunny Anglia, his name Geoffrey Robertson. It's unlikely he will answer but he is high profile and is accustomed to international law. Fingers crossed.

FargyAug 4, 2013

Apparently the League of Legend player in a similar situation had an anonymous payment of his $500,000 bail.
I'd say that was League of Legends, getting themselves out of the news.

Jagex is trapped in the corporate game. If they ask their lawyers, their lawyers will automatically opt for the safe route. Which is say nothing and report everything and hand everything over to police when asked.
This response is an inevitability.

Probably the best they can do is bail the kid out. Mind you after that long in jail, suicide is a possibility. Still, outside jail is always safer than inside.

Hmm. Probably some more to be thought of. Issues like charging the person who goaded him and so on.

JoHarringtonAug 4, 2013

I've been pondering it too. On the one hand, if there was some credence in his threats, then Jagex did a good thing passing it up. If there wasn't, then a severe over-reaction has taken place.

But, if you were Jagex at that moment, would you have taken the chance?

FargyAug 4, 2013

Ah, Prisoner, what an appropriate soapie for a convict land where we are all young and free, with boundless plains to share.
I only recently bumped into the other convict Josh Pillault article, and at least one other. I'm not quite sure what I think about it.

JoHarringtonAug 4, 2013

Incidentally, look what I rediscovered this week: http://wizzley.com/prisoner-cell-block-h/ :D

JoHarringtonAug 4, 2013

Because life Mrs Brown, it's just one big knees up
A night on the town, a storm in a teacup
(More like a teacup in a storm)
Where are the songs about boozers and buildings
banning the bomb and abusing the children
who'll one day be pop music stars
with their pop music guitars...

Sorry, I had a sudden outbreak of Carter USM then. :)

I had heard about Josh Pillault and I meant to follow the case, but got side-tracked into other things. Thank you very much for the reminder; and the heads up about the situation in Australia.

Love and pixie dust right back.

FargyAug 4, 2013

Hello Jo. :) *waves excitedly*

The Australian election has been called for the 7th Sept. which means this next month will be all about voting. Then maybe get back to business for a month then the holiday break.

I popped into Reddit as Fargrist to see what it's like. Left some of my thoughts there in three posts, it's freer than RS forums but not a cup of tea for me. Needs more storm.

SoF; I plan to break by talking. But some other issues reared their ugly heads along the way, which they always do in this interconnected networld.

Here is a relevant link...

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/02/second-teen-spends-months-in-jail-for-video-game-threat/

I feel for the lad. And I can understand the safety mania that drives people to jail him. There is another case with a League of Legends player, and probably a few unreported cases.

I wonder if these are some of the terrorists that Five Eyes protects us from.

With much love and some pixie dust,

Fargrist.

JoHarringtonJul 4, 2013

Fargy speaks for me too. We are ALL long term gamers here. We're not just leaping onto a bandwagon of which we know nothing. I've also put in my years of clicking pixels and loving runescape, only to see it descend into a money-grabbing mire. As soon as Jagex cares about the game again, you'll hear no dissent here.

FargyJul 4, 2013

Dear Runescape Player X,

You are right, Runescape is wrong to tell people that gambling for kids is good. Just because Squeal of Fortune is a sweet and juicy moneymaker, does not mean it is a good thing.

Gambling is an evil thing, a terrible thing. Theft by deception. And Jagex should stop it.

But they cannot, they are addicted to the money, so they will continue to kill kids for it.

Have no fear though, there are a few that will stop them. One way or another.

Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate the time you spent away from Runescape.

Runescape player XJul 1, 2013

All you morons and parents who think you understand the world I live in a a long term gamer and feel you have some right to tell me how to live my life what is okay and not should reflect upon mistakes of the past in this country any ban that would effect my freedoms and choices I would see as a direct act of discrimination your telling me I can't live my life the way I want because I game is the same as telling aboriginal's they can't drink cos there black. If you don't agree with me then beat me in runescape I am currently in the top 500 players in the world and would be passionately motivated to enter politics to set any mess straight that the nut jobs we elect made for me and my fellow gamers,

You have no moral authority to dictate how I should live my life unless you have lived it.

Hence unless you have spent over 18,000 house playing Runescape you can stop poking around in my business.

JoHarringtonJun 2, 2013

'A reckless waste of magic'. I love how you phrased that.

The educational side of it was something which I was waffling on about here: http://suite101.com/article/parenting-teenage-gamers-pitfalls-and-missed-opportunities-a386144 It was inspired by real incidents during the earliest Bonus XP Weekends. Genuine learning went on there, with both adults and children very willing to delve into things deemed too complicated and boring before.

I love what Jane McGonigal is saying. That was definitely worth checking out. Thank you.

FargyJun 2, 2013

There is that element of the fourth non-existent wall.

But more than that MMOs provide a room for a bunch of people from around the world to commune. This has implications that cross national boundaries, that ignore religious pales, that don't care about your real world habitat. Like how much money you have, or where you live.

But not only that. MMOs can structure learning in an enjoyable environment. These two things are barely touched by MMOs but are two of its possible magics. All wrapped up in a story.

Jane McGonigal talks about learning and games here...

http://blog.ted.com/2010/03/17/gaming_can_make/

http://www.ted.com/talks/jane_mcgonigal_the_game_that_can_give_you_10_extra_years_of_life.html

Runescape has focused more on the possibilities related to trapping people in their house in front of a poker machine, unloved and uncared for.

A reckless waste of magic.

JoHarringtonJun 1, 2013

*adds strine to my list of Aussie words*

Not telling people how to live their lives is different to protecting the magic that was once in it all. I've had so many years of pleasure immersing myself into Runescape, then suddenly the money-men came crashing in and effectively tore down that fourth wall. I do know what you mean by that.

FargyJun 1, 2013

Strine is Aussie slang. I smoked for 30 years and do understand ciggies, not really sure why I stopped. But given how harmful they are and how long it took the companies making money to even consider it was a problem, it looks like we have an uphill battle with pokies too.

And Squeal of Fortune.

On the other hand I don't like telling people how to live their lives, I barely know what to do with mine. Tis complicated. Generally I nag the Jagex directors about once a week about what sort of legacy they want to leave with something as marvellous as Runescape. And done that for the last seven months. I've also contacted all the political parties in Aussie about SoF and similar schemes. It'll work but it's a lengthy process, and I would have much preferred Mark Gerhard to really talk to players.

The worst thing about it all has been that I had to remove my tinted glasses and carefully regard Runescape and that ruined the magic.

JoHarringtonJun 1, 2013

It's all good. I'm learning the lingo here. So what's 'strine'? ;)

That's the trouble with any kind of addiction. You need to feed it whatever the cost. And I'm saying this as someone with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth.

FargyJun 1, 2013

Forgive my strine. Pokies are poker machines.

I'm sick of pokies especially, but things like Squeal of Fortune and other gambling rorts are nothing but ruinful.

Let me quote some old duffer vis a vis gambling...

" If you have a large group of people who are addicted to gambling, you'll have more crime. People get into impossible situations when they get addicted to something like that. And some people will opt for crime, some will opt for bankruptcy, some may commit suicide."

Warren Buffett.

JoHarringtonJun 1, 2013

This is really valuable context, thank you. I did not know that about Woolworths! Presumably that's the same story internationally as well. Pokies = poker players?

I can definitely see why the SoF debate is so pertinent in Australia right now.

FargyJun 1, 2013

It's not Nick alone. Last year we had some legislation slated to calm pokies down a bit, spearheaded by a Senator Andrew Wilkie of Tasmania. The Govt. broke their deal with him to support restrictions on pokies. Which lost the Govt a lot of support, they are heading into Sept election as guaranteed losers, from this and similar decisions. Poker machines are the bulk of gambling losses in Australia and I think people are sick of them, so when Tom Waterhouse stuck his head up on TV and by virtue of his everywhere advertising suggested that gambling is fun and all the kiddies should do it, he made an easy target for anger. Some of that came out directly some indirectly, like people associated with him being investigated more fully than they would have been in the past. John Singleton and Gai Waterhouse particularly.

Two journalists wrote possibly defamatory articles about Tom, Sam de Brito and Peter Fitzsimons. From memory supporting comments to the articles were over 90% in favor fo the journalist. Tom is suing Peter for defamation.

People are sick of gambling. But interests like the supermarket group Woolworths are hard for political parties to ignore, and Woolies owns some 12,000 poker machines via the pubs and clubs they own.

And into this steps Squeal of Fortune.

JoHarringtonMay 31, 2013

It certainly seems like a hot topic there at the moment. Is it just a case of Tom Waterhouse going over the top, or is Nick Xenophon spear-heading the whole social scare?

Thanks for the Raine Group lead. I'll certainly look into them!

FargyMay 30, 2013

Australia has a very public gambling discussion at the moment. A bookie started TV advertising of his odds during football games, during the day. People got angry and this is the atmosphere the SoF amendments will be voted on in.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/i-am-sorry-i-have-listened-waterhouse-cuts-back-on-tv-advertising-20130531-2nfia.html

Raine Group, one of the Jagex owners, actually is associated with Double Down Interactive gambling.

For the conspiracy theorists Raine also has ties to Blizzard, for those wondering why Runescape seems to be intentionally self-destructive. Search John Salter, Raine group to get a little bio. Why doesn't WoW have SoF type gambling?

We've been off to enjoy an old stomping ground, Ultima Online, 15th year this year, which shows MMOs are very resilient, I think players are very loyal to the genre. It's where Fargrist and Vivathia first met; a miasmic, monster infested swamp. Very romantic. :)

But I'll always keep an eye on things scapian. Much love, keep it unreal Jo.

JoHarringtonMay 30, 2013

Fargy - Thanks for keeping your eye on this thread. Of course Australians would just nip over to the other servers, unless the entire country is kept out via IP blocking. Then they'd still nip overt to the other servers, but via proxies.

JoHarringtonMay 30, 2013

Bakstar - Yes, I think that it would be cost-prohibitive. Obviously it depends how Jagex lock Australians out of SoF, but that's effectively creating code for solely one country, while running parallel servers for all of the rest. Do you think that could be done cheaply/free? And apologies for the delayed reaction, I was away for a week.

FargyMay 25, 2013

Bakstar, there is at least one problem, logistically. Keeping Australian servers Squeal free is not a problem, but what if that isn't enough? Obviously people that want to gamble could go to US or UK servers, so that means some problems. I guess a token effort of IP banning Australia from Squeal servers might be reasonable and practical to stop Australians accessing Squeal, but it is going to be a bit of work for Runescape. If it's rushed it'll be borked. EoC was ready.

Mark Gerhard did talk about changing Squeal mechanics in an email to me, but he isn't a paragon of reliability.

BakstarMay 25, 2013

"The logistics of altering the game code would be very cost prohibitive."

Do you really think so....???

JoHarringtonMay 23, 2013

It sounds like it's all kicking off over there in Australia. That's one way to garner public support!

FargyMay 23, 2013

I don't know how the house reacted. However a guy called Tom Waterhouse could inadvertently help. He is a bookmaker who bet large on saturation TV advertising for his sports betting business. He even got onto football commentary panels to give his thoughts and odds. Public reaction has been extremely adverse, that may help Nick get the support he needs for the amendment.

JoHarringtonMay 23, 2013

Ah! Thank you very much for the heads up. I will certainly like to read that when I'm back off my holiday.

How was it received in the house?

FargyMay 23, 2013

Nick introduced his Interactive Gambling Amendment (Virtual Credits) Bill 2013 last week.

Contact Anna Gordon at his website for Nick’s speech and the explanatory memorandum. She should have some .pdfs laying around. Or I can attach and email them? Just need to advise which email you would like them sent to.

JoHarringtonMay 19, 2013

Ah! Thank you very much. :)

FargyMay 19, 2013

Jo - I'm not sure on the Quakers Hills story. Dr King is currently in transit abroad and may not have the study on him but can be reached here daniel.king@adelaide.edu.au

JoHarringtonMay 19, 2013

Fargy - An interesting study there. I'd quite like to read that one. Is the kid from Quakers Hill the same one you linked me to before? I thought the bill was higher on that story.

JoHarringtonMay 19, 2013

Simon - You speak for us all! They actually changed that rule to facilitate the SoF. I would also like to see it go away.

FargyMay 19, 2013

Just another media report on Runescape in Australia.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/gaming-habits-are-learnt-early-20130518-2jtc6.html

One of the report's authors, Dr King mentioned this in an email to me,

""Our study asked participants to indicate the games they played that featured gambling. Runescape came up, as did games like Red Dead Redemption and GTA. Social media games like Slotomania and Zynga Poker were popular too."

SimonMay 19, 2013

I play this game and Squeel of fortune is one of the things that ruined the game experince for me. They have a strict rule that says that you aren't allowed to purchase in game curency for real money. But it's the exact thing they are doing but legit. What I hope to see is that Jagex removes this feature.

JoHarringtonMay 7, 2013

That's very poetically put. I do enjoy it when you wax lyrical. It's all a game. Life is the greatest game of all. Call me when you need some prayer potions and a few cooked sharks. Good luck, cariad fi.

FargyMay 6, 2013

I see MMOs as imaginary creations, they don't exist, they are language and music. We can see through them how new words and ideas spread like fire through a city. They are fascinating games; part yo-yo craze, part viral display of growth and decay, like flowers. Again, I use game, as a word, often and people tend to misread how I use it. When people ask you what game you are in, or perhaps Obama's use of the phrase game changer, gives more of an idea.
That said it's not a game of numbers but a game of ideas, and I've a number of ideas how to play this flower game. :)

Adieu, mon ami. The game is afoot.

JoHarringtonMay 6, 2013

You have my respect. Fighting the good fight was never easy, which is why it's called a fight. But hundreds of thousands of Runescape players are urging you on. Thank you.

FargyMay 6, 2013

Sesame Street didn't know of their imitator. They have an office in New York, but never got back to me. I've not checked back, I kept rolling along. This week for instance was chatting to Disney Channel, Cartoon Network and Nicklodeon about Runescape advertising. It can be somewhat deadening this remorseless push towards a goal, but I think a Squeal free future is worth it.

JoHarringtonMay 6, 2013

Did Big Bird try to pressure kids into using their parent's credit card to buy extra ABCs?

I'll admit that I didn't know about the Sesame Street link.

FargyMay 6, 2013

Actually Squeal of Fortune was first used by Sesame Street in a skit with an over-enthusiastic host. With the progenitor obviously being Wheel of Fortune for both Squeals. And both Squeals aimed at kiddies, one having a more malevolent eye than the other.

JoHarringtonMay 6, 2013

Ah! I see. It's still based on 'Wheel of Fortune', which was inspired by the same thing in casinos.

FargyMay 6, 2013

I think by "other companies" Mark meant casinos.

JoHarringtonMay 6, 2013

That makes it sound like it's an unhappy accident that the 'spinning wheel' device just happened to match the Wheel of Fortune gambling mechanism! The clue is in the name! What else could it possibly be?!

FargristMay 6, 2013

Part of an email Mark Gerhard sent me on 19th April 2013,

Equally I’m troubled that you consider SoF ‘gambling’ where in reality it is absolutely no different to the existing drop table mechanic behind killing any monster in RuneScape, I’m conscious a few players have called the creative implementation into question and I suppose it’s not a helpful comparison when other companies do indeed use a similar spinning wheel device for what is very clearly a real gambling service, the team have a project slated this year to look at changing the implementation.

JoHarringtonApr 8, 2013

*shudders* Your view of the possible future sounds all too inevitable, should this action make it onto the statute books in Australia. To my mind, the EoC version is already irreversibly infested by micro-transactions, which is why I'm back in 2007.

You'd think that the hints are there from the player base. Last night, in Old School, there were five worlds completely full, and all of the others were well populated. Players did vote with their pixel feet.

But as long as some people are willing to pay, then micro-transactions will remain and everything moves a lot closer to your vision of the future.

TimApr 7, 2013

You know what Jagex probually would do is put the stuff in the solomon general store which would probually be worse. Then there's no gambling argument although there would be an upraw from the players again. If they want more money they will stop at nothing to get it. If SOF is removed they will just find another way the most obvious being direct selling. They could charge more membership fee but alot are against that just look at the Poll tip.it ran just after the last price increase to $7.95US.

War of Legends already direct sells just about everything including legend exp. WOL is a gold mine for them as the amount they earn per a head is huge even though not many play it.

At one point there were even players on the forum asking for direct selling to combat botting & RWT although they may have just been desperate to get free trade & the wilderness back it did happen.

JoHarringtonApr 7, 2013

The democratic process certainly isn't ideal, as it stands with two parties. But that's up to the electorate to open up the field a little more. If people vote for a variety of parties, then a variety of parties will get in. It's only when we give up, tactically voting between two options, that this status quo is allowed to continue.

But what would we have instead of democracy? Tyranny? Monarchy? Feudal system? There's nothing tried so far that came any closer to a fair society than democracy. But that doesn't mean that we can't keep on improving that.

Even if the bill doesn't go through, the debate has been had. Debates allow all points of view to be aired, and that can only be a good thing.

JonApr 7, 2013

They couldn't even get the pokie reforms though they only got it on cards in the first place because Gillard was low on seats & needed Wilkie onboard now that she doesn't need him the whole thing has been canned. Gambling reforms will only be on the cards if they need a seat in the lower house (not the senate) to maintain power. That was much bigger press then SOF is...

The LNP collation are even less likely to pass any gambling reforms as there infavour of big business making as much money as possible in any means possible. Greens probually would do it but there chances of getting in are virtually nill...

"You would give up democracy, political debate and due legal process"

Have you seen the clowns we have running this Country? Democracy when you have the choice of 2 main parties that are both awful? Political debate here boils down to them yelling at each other to make each other look bad without a clear though in there heads from either side.

JoHarringtonApr 7, 2013

I suppose that the difference - from a parenting point of view - is that the former are limited by cash in the pocket. You can give your kid some money and when it's gone, it's gone. They may have gambled it, but there's no more money coming. Lessons learned within defined limitations.

How many parents really understand what goes on in Runescape? Yes, you can limit the cash there, but only if you can curtail the spending too. If there weren't kids stealing their parents' credit cards, then Jagex wouldn't have had to guard against it in their TOS.

It's an interesting debate.

JonApr 7, 2013

Really they should shut down carnivals/shows/ allies/arcades as well as money can be lost they operate these places where kids loose hundreds in a single day. The thing is these places don't guarantee you a win & have gotten away with it for decades. There is usually real items & sometimes even cash to be won.

Personally I say that the parent is responsible for there own credit cards. If your kid gets there hands on your credit card it's your fault for not keeping it secure.

JoHarringtonMar 22, 2013

Thank you very much for your take on this issue, but I couldn't disagree with you more.

It's true that you can't lose in SoF, but there is still a value scale in what you can win. You could walk away with a cabbage, or you could walk away with 100s of 1000s xp or millions of gp. Are you playing for the cabbage or for the chance to win that high item reward?

You said it yourself later on. You would consider buying spins, if there was a limited edition special offer. You'd want to have more spins in the hope of securing that main prize. If hope ever replaces certainty, then it's gambling. When you have to pay for a chance that the hope may deliver, then it's monetized gambling.

If I wanted, say, a steel plate in game right now. I'd go and mine the iron and coal, forge it in a furnace, smith it on an anvil and put it on. That isn't gambling. It's playing the game.

If I spun the wheel each day, because a steel platebody was a potential prize, then I'd be gambling to achieve it. That's the difference.

You would give up democracy, political debate and due legal process for the sake of ensuring that SoF went on? With respect, I find that worrying.

Jagex do not make Runescape for the altruistic joy of it. It is a business, with investors backing it. The responsibility of the executive is primarily towards their stakeholders. Their success or failure boils down to the bottom line - how much profit was made this quarter? Happily their concerns often align with our happiness, because keeping the customer (the players) happy ensures the continual flow of money into their coffers.

But if it came down to making a quick buck/securing financial stability v peace on the forums, then the former would win every time. That's business.

J.Mar 22, 2013

I don't know how people think it's gambling. Gambling is when you stake money/items in HOPES of winning it back, and more, but there's a risk of losing it all. SoF always gives you something - even if the item is useless, you can convert it to game currency. You can't lose in the SoF.

This senator is apparently has no clue about the game and how it works, is an idiot, or perhaps even both. He needs to do some research, speak to Jagex, and try to see if reasoning/negotiations are possible.

Plus, it's the responsibility of the parents of the child to monitor their child's transactions, or do them for them. If the parents don't like it, they need to keep their child away from it. And what on earth does a child have their hands on their parents' credit card for anyways? If anyone should be in trouble, it should be the irresponsible parents.

Quite honestly, it's incredibly childish the way the RS community has acted over this. Really. It's Jagex's game, they're NOT breaking any laws. It's childish that people around the world are contacting their nation's governments for 'help'. It's pathetic. Why? Because they can simply quit, or not take part. Instead, however, they decide they want to take Jagex down with them, and try to make them look bad or get into legal trouble.

Sorry, but I am staying on Jagex's side. Actually, no, I'm not sorry, because I haven't done anything wrong. I'm on Jagex's side, and believe-it-or-not, I actually do enjoy the SoF. And no, it's not because I've bought loads of spins and won great stuff. I enjoy it, because I can log in daily and get 3 free spins (I'm a Gold Premier Club member, thus I get 3 free spins daily instead of the normal 2 for a normal member, or the 1 daily spin for free players), then I can do tasks in-game to get more spins. However, does this mean I won't purchase spins? No - I plan on it at some point, but I'm waiting until I have some money to spare, or rather, until there's something I really want badly on the SoF that's limited time only.

No, I'm no wannabe mod. I just respect Jagex, and I get so frustrated with the whining children in this community, and how pathetically immature they are. Jagex does EVERYTHING for their players, and what do they receive in return? Ungrateful little children who spit in their faces and whine because apparently it's never enough for them. Cases like this are why I literally despise democracy. (Yes, republics are democratic governments)

JoHarringtonFeb 16, 2013

I'm quite excited by that. I'll still have full stats on the main game, and starting again in RS2007 really will be a nostalgia kick. I joined in 2006!

WournosFeb 16, 2013

I just read everyone has to start fresh on RS2007. I am really not looking forward to starting all over after having spent 7 years developing my main character. I'll wait in the background for now.

JoHarringtonFeb 15, 2013

We're all happy people in our Skype chat right now. Gri3f popped in to make me promise to blog about this tomorrow on my Merch Gwyar blog. It shall happen. :)

JoHarringtonFeb 15, 2013

It's past 31k now.

You'll get to do RuneSpan later. The two games will be separate and on separate servers, from what I can gather.

WournosFeb 15, 2013

O.o the poll was at 18k votes an hour ago. Now it's gone up to 29k.
Even if it is a win-win for them, every one of us can still say "we told you so!" when (if) it shows that more people want old RS instead of EoC/SoF.

Makes me seriously ponder rushing RC in RuneSpan before I let my account go RS2007 style. I'll make sure to read the fine print before jumping aboard, though.

JoHarringtonFeb 15, 2013

It's now live? We've been debating this with some wariness. If hundreds of thousands of old school 'Scapers come back to vote, then Jagex is quids in. If they don't, then Jagex can say that no-one wanted it so can we all shut up. It's a win-win situation for them.

But on the other hand, we might get our old game back.

WournosFeb 15, 2013

http://services.runescape.com/m=news/old-school-runescape-servers-poll-now-live

NOTE: You have to be a MEMBER to vote. M-E-M-B-E-R. Paid subscription. How many have already left wanting this, or something similar?! Jagex doesn't seize to amaze me with their utter stupidity.

JoHarringtonFeb 13, 2013

Hiya Fargrist! Lovely to see you in these parts.

Thanks for updating up on the current situation with Nick Xenophon and the campaign. As for Jagex, it's still a crying shame that you were banned just for speaking out against SoF. If history has taught us one thing, it's that trying to silence dissent generally results in the sound of dissent getting much louder.

You take care too. :)

FargyFeb 13, 2013

Hey Jo, Fargrist here. :)

As soon as the legislation is submitted Nick Xenophon's office will get in touch and I'll then start pushing to make it happen.

The foundation of my evil scheme to break Squeal of Fortune remains talking. This time the audience will be Australian Senators and MPs. Usually I get things done by people becoming tired of my constant chatter. Hopefully everything goes to plan.

Vivathia and I are still banned, we had two appeals and there is a message down the bottom of the screen from Jagex that we will never have any more.

Which is a shame, but then again, what's the point of a Runescape with Squeal.

Runescape still interests me, Vivathia has moved on. The EoC events I find fascinating.

Take care out there.

JoHarringtonFeb 12, 2013

I watched some of those videos myself, which is why I ended up so incensed by it all.

Far as I know, Andrew's still working on his game.

WournosFeb 12, 2013

The only thing I have to say to Phantasmagoria is to go to youtube, search for the early SoF related videos where players have timed their interaction with SoF in both clicking the wheel and opening lamps, and tell me you *don't* get 500k or more experience from it (as a high level player).
I am so not going to debate this anymore than I already have because, frankly, the topic is suffocating me.

I wonder what Andrew Gower is up to. Still no announcement on Fen Research.

JoHarringtonFeb 10, 2013

It's that old dilemma - you're either rich in money or time, unless you're extremely lucky enough to have both. But in this situation, actually playing the game requires that time. Playing it literally gives you in experience, in how to fight the various bosses or how to find the best skilling strategies. Buying xp from spins doesn't give you that. It just deposits you from A to B with nothing useful in between.

Think of it like achieving a university degree. Would you rather someone did the work from enrolment to graduation? Or someone just turned up with a cheque and said 'give me a PhD'? The former takes time. The latter takes money.

The game is supposed to be balanced, so that one player wouldn't drawn a run of brilliant Slayer bosses. It's a mixture.

PhantasmagoriaFeb 9, 2013

Right. And if you actually looked at the link you provided, you'd see that he has high 90's in all but one skill he got exp from lamps in. Of course he was going to get a lot of exp from using lamps in those skills. It scales with your levels.

Okay. So your friend got upset that someone else got to 99 Slayer easier than he did. What if that person had gotten lucky and obtained a slew of high slayer exp tasks while your friend got stuck with crappy ones. Would they have still been so upset over it? What if the other person was able to play twice as long as your friend did?

Is it really only about the money? Someone who doesn't have to work can play the game far longer each day than I can, but you don't hear me complaining about it.

JoHarringtonFeb 9, 2013

I didn't think it coincidental when my friend met that person. There were a few of them around. This is why it's all causing so much resentment.

JoHarringtonFeb 9, 2013

I'm with Southeaster on this one. Phantasmagoria, you stated that it would take a long time to gain any meaningful XP with SoF, but then I see charts like that belonging to SquealScape. It's reproduced halfway down this article: http://wizzley.com/runescape-jagex-microtransactions/ He only used SoF lamps to get there.

When it first came out, my friend had only just achieved 99 Slayer. He bumped into someone who'd got the same from SoF lamps, so he quit. Suddenly his own achievement was utterly devalued and it wasn't worth being around anymore. I saw that situation repeated so many times that my clan was practically finished. It's still hanging on, but with a fraction of the members that it had before. Most just left.

If SoF was just about cosmetic items, then I doubt anyone would have a problem. Solomon's Store hasn't incited nearly the same level of uproar for just that reason. I'm with you on that one.

PhantasmagoriaFeb 8, 2013

And like I said, the hard cash is a pittance compared to what you could get from gold sellers.

You either have to be mad or stupid to think that the SoF is a good way to make money. Seriously. You'd have to be spending 200 dollars a day to even come close to getting a large amount of cash, and even then the chances are against you.

Real world status has always had an impact on your success in MMOs. Someone who can play for 2 hours a day vs someone who can play for 8 hours a day, for example.

As for exp lamps, honestly I wouldn't care if they were removed. I just want the costumes from it. I'd be happy with pendants. Also, your statement about getting 500k-1m exp easily with no effort is a bit untrue. Lets say you have level 80 in a skill. You'd get approx 4k per small lamp and 8k per medium lamp. If you use spins in large amounts sure, you'll get a few of those. But in order to get exp in the amounts you're saying, you'd need to get 125 small lamps, just for 500k exp. Of course, the number fluctuates and you get more exp the higher level you are, but still. You would still have to buy at least 50 dollars worth of spins for that and you're still not guaranteed to get all those lamps, plus you can get the set skill lamps and all that.

You are still going to need to spend massive amounts of cash in order to do it. Something that your average player simply does not have lying around. May as well just buy an account off eBay, it'd be a fraction of the price.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be altered, but I am saying that the arbitrary numbers people throw out when they haven't used it at all are getting old. It's not like you win 200m and a maxed account on every single spin.

JoHarringtonFeb 7, 2013

I'm cautiously optimistic, though I'd also want to know the full cost to gaming.

Federal Senator Xenophon has said that when it's introduced, it will need to pass both Houses. That will be the moment when Runescape players really need to contact their political representative to have their say. Nothing will happen overnight in either case.

AndrewFeb 7, 2013

This is something that I would get behind!

JoHarringtonFeb 7, 2013

I'm with Wournos on this one. When SoF came out in February 2012, it wasn't my favourite update ever, but it felt harmless enough. Then came XP lamps, hard cash and all of the other 'here have it on a plate if you can afford it' ventures. At that moment real world wealth and status impacted upon the same in-game. That's when the bubble burst for me. RS had been my escape from the unfairness of real life, now it aped it.

To me there's a huge moral difference between the illegal sites and Jagex's endorsement. The former might bring in huge wealth for less money, but there's still the stigma of it not being right. Players would turn against that sort of thing and Jagex would ban the account, if it was found out. Therefore the price comes not in pennies, but in reputation and potential loss of all you worked for. When Jagex do it, then the downside disappears. It's viewed as somehow morally ok now.

I'm in full agreement that parents should take responsibility for parenting. But not that 'everyone else is doing it, why not me'. As my mother has told me all my life, 'Yes, and if 'insert name' jumped in the cut, would you do it too?'

WournosFeb 7, 2013

Phantasmagoria,
There's a difference between MT's and gambling - or "gambling" as Jagex states. I am all for MT's as long as they give NO BENEFIT to your gaming performance (this is an exeption: http://wizzley.com/review-of-salem-beta-dec-2012-jan-2013/). But as soon as you get some sort of advantage from paying extra (which SoF does, in a roundabout way) the game is doomed, in my opinion.
SoF does that and more. A bundle of small and medium lamps potentially giving a player 500k to 1 mil exp in a relatively short time span is one hell of a benefit. Those who do that don't even play the actual game.

Urgh, I feel my anger coming on again. What were they thinking?! ...besides money.

PhantasmagoriaFeb 7, 2013

Oh look, the 2006 people are here too. Great.

Anyways. Spins aren't actually that bad. It's not like they're on Maple Story levels of power selling, what with them directly selling money bags through the cash shop. In fact, buying spins to get ahead is actually dreadfully inefficient. Spending 50 bucks on spins might get you 500k or so unless they're specifically running a double gold promotion at the time.

That'd cost you all of 15 cents from one of the illegal gold trading websites (note that i'm not advocating buying gold at all but it is far more bang for your buck)

The issues is children and lack of supervision. Lazy parents who hook up their credit card to their kids account and then make a fuss when their kid is lured in by the shiny advertising and wastes 200 bucks on spins.

Jagex more than has the right to use microtransactions in their game. 99% of other mmo's already do it.

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

This is what we've all been discussing in our Skype call. The more we think about it, the further the ramifications could well travel. I can't even imagine where the end game will be, though it is interesting to speculate.

I'd certainly like to see the end of SoF, though I would also like to envisage precisely the cost of that too.

JSheaForrestFeb 6, 2013

There's a whole slew of games that would be affected if this legal ground is broken: There's a whole genre of online collectable card games where you can buy card packs that have a chance of containing a rare, powerful card (but most likely don't); there's a mystery-box type of item in almost every F2P MMORPG's cash shop; and most real time strategy games have some sort of random-powerup-machine where you can buy a chance at winning that one item you need to gain a competitive edge. Runescape is far from innovating into legal gray area here. If they are forced to shut down the SoF, it will have wide ramifications into the entire realm of games with microtransactions -- ones that I am eager to see.

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

I doubt that the Federal Senator is interested, but he should be.

ZezimaFeb 6, 2013

wat about the bots?

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

No need! Fargrist says that he's quite happy for me to tell you that he gave me this information. He provided lots of lovely source links too, as well as a way to contact said senator. I've updated my article to say so too.

Thanks Fargrist!

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

Sorry about that Southeaster. I've just provided a link to it on the RS2006 thread too, so it'll alert everyone there.

I can't divulge my sources, unless said source gives me the go ahead to do so. I'll check.

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

I think that's a huge likelihood. In fact, I meant to mention in the article itself that this sets a precedent, which some politicians elsewhere might race to make their names from emulating.

Obviously this is pure speculation, but it could set off a whole domino effect.

PaulFeb 6, 2013

Bringing it back on topic, what's the likelihood that if Jagex can't defend themselves from this and the loopholes are pluged, other countries follow suit?

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

Wow! That's quite a story! I don't even play the game and I was rapt while reading it. Just shows how much all of this is worth in IRL wealth, and how badly it can go wrong. It also explains how $8k was lost in the melee.

I don't quite know how to respond to that, other than with my jaw gaping somewhat. Thanks for finding it out.

PaulFeb 6, 2013

Found a good explanation, it's long (spanning many comments - sorry!), but actually an exciting read even though I've never played the game.

Taken from http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/17d2lv/massive_2800_player_battle_in_eve_online_took/c84hbfo

Essentially, there are two "Mega" coalitions in the game right now, the Clusterf**k Coalition (CFC) and the Honeybadger Coalition (HBC). A coalition is a group of alliances that band together. There are also 3-4 other smaller coalitions (Russian Bloc, N3), as well as some independent notable alliances (Black Legion in this case).

These are all Nullsec powers. The HBC's core alliance is TEST; an alliance that is based from and recruits out of your favorite website, Reddit. The CFC's core alliance is Goonswarm, which is based in and recruits out of your least favorite website, SomethingAwful!

Now, it would appear that these two alliances were born to be rivals, but it was not always this way. When the reddit corporation (alliances are composed over individual corporations) first joined EVE, they were attacked by the SA corporation, goonswarm; who were already very established in the EVE universe. Instead of becoming enemies, the Goons were taken aback by the adorableness of our attitude towards the game, and we became allies and soon to be best friends. They nurtured us, tought us, fought for us. Our current leader, Montolio, decided that he wanted to take a path of independence.

We met another group of players in an alliance called Pandemic Legion. They are considered the big bad guys of EVE. They posses hundreds of the Super Carriers and Titans; the most powerful ships in the game and which the pictures in the OP are mostly comprised of. Basically, these guys have a public mumble channel called OG mumble. Mumble is a program like teamspeak, if you didn't know. This was when Battlefield: Bad Company 2 was popular, and some of our guys joined their channel to play with them. They befriended them, and more people joined to play and more and more. Soon, their EVE alliance had invited us to go on campaign with them; and it was hella fun. They were a bunch of old players, and our raw enthusiasm of the game seemed to make it more fun for them, and their wealth, power and experience taught us a lot.

PaulFeb 6, 2013

The problem is, that our new PL friends are direct enemies with our Goonswarm bros. These tensions were drawn down, and we eventually got both of them fighting for us to attack a new threat to us in the South. But that's another story.

What's important to last night is that we chose to go with PL instead of goons, and we formed our own coalition; the HBC. Between PL's ability to drop many of the most powerful ships in the game, and our ability to rush in with hundreds of support ships to back them up, it's a potent force.

Last night, a relatively small pirate alliance that controls a good bit of territory nearby Goon-land thought that the goons may try to attack them over a local moon; which holds mineral resources. They informed a fleet commander in Pandemic Legion that this may be happening, and PL set up to ambush goons.

The goonswarm Fleet commander (FC), Dabigredboat, is a prettty interesting character, who is loved or hated throughout the game, but that's another story. Anyways, he is flying a titan. These are the most powerful ships in the game, they do a lot of damage, can take a LOT of damage, and are ridiculously expensive. Additionally, they can move across the universe rapidly with a jump drive; but they can also move OTHER SHIPS across the universe rapidly by "bridging" them.

Sidebar: EVE has an interesting feature where people can buy game time cards (30/60 day) and sell them in game for in game money; allowing wealthy people to essentially play the game for free, and allowing people who are wealthy out of game to have the money to do what they want. This provides a rare insight to the actual value of in game item. And a titan, like dabigredboat's, would cost something like $3500 dollars to buy with out of game money.

PaulFeb 6, 2013

Back to the story. So basically, boat is in his titan getting ready to bridge a full fleet (~250 dudes) onto this small pirate alliance. Except he makes a mistake; he clicks JUMP instead of BRIDGE. That sends his $3,500 ship right into the middle of this pirate corporation with nobody nearby to support him. And then all hell breaks loose.

If you'll remember, PL was aware that something might be going down, and when the pirates inform them that a titan has jumped in, and not only a titan but Dabigredboat's titan, they jump in 3-4 supercarriers. Supercarriers do more damage than a titan, but don't take quite as much and aren't quite as expensive. Boat orders Goon and CFC supers to log in, and they drop a few more supers in to help boat. PL goes into hyperdrive and goes all in; they drop every supercarrier they have available, and are frantically calling everyone they know to get there as well.

And then Boat makes a crucial mistake. He should have realized that his titan and the few supers he called in to support him were going to die, and cut his losses. But instead he panics, and calls in EVERYTHING the CFC has to help get him out of there. At this point, the battle transcends hell and goes into every god damn layer of Dante's Inferno. The CFC commits every supercarrier, titan, dreadnought (basically floating gun platforms that do a ton of damage) and regular carrier (which are basically "healers") that they can. PL does the same, and the rest of the HBC is in right behind them. My fleet, and the rest of the TEST fleet burned across the universe at best speed to get into the fight, and all of our capitals (dreads/carriers) and supercapitals jumped in ahead of us.

Also, goons are not well liked in the universe of EVE. They have fought against (and won against) pretty much every major player in the game. So the rest of the smaller coalitions also jump into the fray. And even though we're technically "unfriendly", they join ourside and the whole universe of EVE piles onto the CFC. My poor laptop crashed when there were 2800 people in the solar system (And there were hundreds more in surrounding systems), but it was epic.

The CFC lost a lot of stuff. ~44 Dreads, 29 Carriers, 5 Supercarriers and 3 Titans. The HBC and the rest of EVE lost 10 Carriers, 6 Dreads, and one Supercarrier. It's a mind boggling amount of damage done, and money lost. But that's EVE.

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

Sounds a bit complex, but also sounds like the sort of thing which Nick Xenophon might be targeting too.

PaulFeb 6, 2013

$8K theoretical money - as it stands at the moment I believe basically the in-game currency can be turned into essentially membership, so from that you can deduce how much actual IRL money was lost during that battle. I'll go and hunt around for the ELI5 answer to it.

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

No, I didn't! Is that $8k IRL money?

PaulFeb 6, 2013

Haha, speaking of which, did you read about the massive battle that took place the other day that Reddit's Eve clan was involved in? The other dudes lost like $8K in ships apparently!

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

True story. I must have had a mind blip then. They already had the excrement storm hit them, so they had to backtrack.

PaulFeb 6, 2013

I think Eve Online's pretty safe - AFAIK there's no "money" in it per se... But that could be totally wrong!

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

I can emphasize with that position. I really miss the old days. I'd love to see them come again. :)

WournosFeb 6, 2013

Oooo a visit from Toady. Hi! *waves*
I'm afraid to get my hopes up. A part of me still wants to see Jagex crash and burn for what they did to the game. But at the same time it would be nice to get back to Andro Noir to get those last (15?) 99s.

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

Toadflax - We all have our fingers crossed there. :)

Paul - All of the Nexon ones for a start. Eve Online will have to take note. Maple Story... on and on...

PaulFeb 6, 2013

It makes you wonder how many other games this could affect - surely quite a lot of them?

ToadflaxFeb 6, 2013

Oooh, please. Let's see the end of SoF and EoC. Pretty please?!

JoHarringtonFeb 6, 2013

I can practically hear the fireworks going off behind every Runescape player's monitor. It's certainly going to be one to watch!

And LOL on the first. This is looking like a real RS forum now. :D

WournosFeb 6, 2013

FIRST!! ;)
Oh my goodness! This is great! If it goes then all we need are Non-EOC servers and we can all return to normal.
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